Increasing deposit limits - Trading as income source

[Acheron]

From https://support.betfair.com/app/answers ... _id/10411/:

Please let us know if you are employing a betting strategy, such as arbing or trading. We appreciate that your source of income may differ from that of recreational customers and, as such, may not be able to provide the information detailed above [pay slips, tax forms and bank statements]. If this is the case, please provide an explanation as to how you use our product, and we will let you know what type of information we will require.

I was slapped with a £100 limit a while back and have never bothered with the challenge process as I haven't been very active on BF since. I'm currently unemployed, no sizable disposable savings, but I might want to get back in soon and if I do I'd look to increase my limit at the earliest opportunity. As a small player I wouldn't expect anything but I'm curious as to what sort of P&L might be necessary for a successful challenge on these grounds - 5 figures minimum or is it more nuanced? By chance, has anyone cited trading as their main source of income in their dealings with BF? What sort of questions were asked? Any thoughts/info welcome.

[ShaunWhite]

By chance, has anyone cited trading as their main source of income in their dealings with BF? What sort of questions were asked? Any thoughts/info welcome.

People who's main source of income is from BF tend not to deposit and just leave enough working capital in place. The reason being that errors can happen, and an inadvertent ban/restriction on deposits means you're out of work. Also self employed (which a full-timer is) traders don't usually shuffle money between personal and business accounts otherwise it looks like like your money is spread thinly.

[Acheron]

Yes such challenges must be relatively rare, although those hit with tighter limits would also tend to have relatively little to meet BF's evidencing standards, be it employment, savings or BF balance. I'm wondering more about the small portion of these cases in particular where a profitable P&L might provide some leeway.

[ShaunWhite]

I can't really comment further as I haven't experienced it. All I know is that (despite appreanaces) Betair want your business, so if you can talk to them rather than going through automated checks then you should find some sort of situation that's agreeable.

[weemac]

If you're unemployed and claiming benefits, DWP will want to know if your BF activity can be construed as income.

[Alpha322]

By chance, has anyone cited trading as their main source of income in their dealings with BF? What sort of questions were asked? Any thoughts/info welcome.

People who's main source of income is from BF tend not to deposit and just leave enough working capital in place. The reason being that errors can happen, and an inadvertent ban/restriction on deposits means you're out of work. Also self employed (which a full-timer is) traders don't usually shuffle money between personal and business accounts otherwise it looks like like your money is spread thinly.

This is not true, once upon a time Betfair allowed any deposits within reason as far as i can remember. I am employed earn a good Salary and i done their challenge as some months i wasn't active. My Trading over the last two years has improved that am able to pay Bills & essentials. I wanted to Trade Cheltenham some few weeks ago, i had a moderate Balance 2k for normal markets. I wanted to deposit the Back owed income from day Job into Betfair which would of put my account decent to Join the High Volume Cheltenham brings. I was told i can only deposit £500, This is a long term account from the days i went to Peters Classes in Hook they were good, loved the food . I was quite surprised , after they trawled through Payslips, and asked what the extra money was for? which was made up of Overtime and back dated income. I wrote a letter of complaint, and now i am just building the bank up for when Goodwood comes. I don't know where this new challenge thing came from?, oh yes they have access to your Credit File, so to have a account now seems like having a loan, it feels like when a Bookmaker shuts down your account. What brought customers to Betfair in the first place was better Value in odds and NO RESTRICTIONS when you won. But like all things in life and business there is a sweetener to pull you in once your in Loyalty goes out the window, same with the Utility and Insurance Companies, at least BA have given its customers loyalty by keeping prices capped and updating the brilliant software year after year and who else gives you great Trading tips on Cheltenham and the great Mr Dallas Knowledge and assistance. Good luck in what you decide to do to get deposit up

[jamesedwards]

I went through this with Betdaq and did get deposit restrictions relaxed somewhat on the back of Betfair P&L history. But it took weeks of back and forth and I had a very robust P&L to leverage.

At least Betfair understand the concept so you have a chance of a fair hearing. Most providers will laugh you out of the room if you try to use trading income as proof of future affordability.

I imagine it will be difficult if you have been inactive for a long period and especially as you have no current income. Perhaps start building up a small bank in the meantime and do some trading at very small stakes so you can demonstrate some consistent profitability?

[Acheron]

I imagine it will be difficult if you have been inactive for a long period and especially as you have no current income. Perhaps start building up a small bank in the meantime and do some trading at very small stakes so you can demonstrate some consistent profitability?

My starting bank is now where I want it and should I manage to have a successful 8-12 months then I'll be in a position to make more deposits and have a chat with BF. The hold-up is an unfinished bot that I'm dusting off - could be several more months of testing/debugging hell so my curiosity is mostly just that at this stage, as you never know what you might learn in the meantime.

[ShaunWhite]

By chance, has anyone cited trading as their main source of income in their dealings with BF? What sort of questions were asked? Any thoughts/info welcome.

People who's main source of income is from BF tend not to deposit and just leave enough working capital in place. The reason being that errors can happen, and an inadvertent ban/restriction on deposits means you're out of work. Also self employed (which a full-timer is) traders don't usually shuffle money between personal and business accounts otherwise it looks like like your money is spread thinly.

This is not true, once upon a time Betfair allowed any deposits within reason as far as i can remember. I am employed earn a good Salary and i done their challenge as some months i wasn't active. My Trading over the last two years has improved that am able to pay Bills & essentials. I wanted to Trade Cheltenham some few weeks ago, i had a moderate Balance 2k for normal markets. I wanted to deposit the Back owed income from day Job into Betfair which would of put my account decent to Join the High Volume Cheltenham brings. I was told i can only deposit £500, This is a long term account from the days i went to Peters Classes in Hook they were good, loved the food . I was quite surprised , after they trawled through Payslips, and asked what the extra money was for? which was made up of Overtime and back dated income. I wrote a letter of complaint, and now i am just building the bank up for when Goodwood comes. I don't know where this new challenge thing came from?, oh yes they have access to your Credit File, so to have a account now seems like having a loan, it feels like when a Bookmaker shuts down your account. What brought customers to Betfair in the first place was better Value in odds and NO RESTRICTIONS when you won. But like all things in life and business there is a sweetener to pull you in once your in Loyalty goes out the window, same with the Utility and Insurance Companies, at least BA have given its customers loyalty by keeping prices capped and updating the brilliant software year after year and who else gives you great Trading tips on Cheltenham and the great Mr Dallas Knowledge and assistance. Good luck in what you decide to do to get deposit up

So what did I say that was 'wasn't true'? I said people don't tend to deposit, and you had problems depositing which demonstrates one of the reasons why. Even if you pass affordability checks it's putting your fate in their hands. That's unacceptable risk.

" Good luck in what you decide to do to get deposit up".??
I've been a Betfair user since 2000, the last deposit I made was in 2016 when I went full-time. If you want a big balance, start will a small one and grow it.

[ShaunWhite]

I imagine it will be difficult if you have been inactive for a long period and especially as you have no current income. Perhaps start building up a small bank in the meantime and do some trading at very small stakes so you can demonstrate some consistent profitability?

My starting bank is now where I want it and should I manage to have a successful 8-12 months then I'll be in a position to make more deposits and have a chat with BF.

If you have a good year you won't need to make more deposits. When the gambling commission introduced affordability checks, most people let their balance grow to cover all eventualities and remove the need to move money in and out.

[Acheron]

If you have a good year you won't need to make more deposits. When the gambling commission introduced affordability checks, most people let their balance grow to cover all eventualities and remove the need to move money in and out.

You will if you want to substantially boost growth, as might any profitable trader with a small starting bank. Finances permitting, of course.

And re your previous post I think it's just crossed wires/clumsy wording (he may have been addressing me with the last part - if so then thanks).

[jamesedwards]

I've been a Betfair user since 2000, the last deposit I made was in 2016 when I went full-time. If you want a big balance, start will a small one and grow it.

Nice

My last deposit was £10 on 15/10/20.

[ShaunWhite]

You will if you want to substantially boost growth, as might any profitable trader with a small starting bank. Finances permitting, of course.

You don't need a big bank to make decent money. And it grows quickly once you tip over into profit.
Over the course of a week you can turn a £100 bank onto £120 fairly easily. Probably more given there's 200 races a week. And I know the compounding part is only theoretical but at that growth rate you've got a 2k bank in 4 months which is plenty most of the time. Just make sure you ring fence about 2 or 3x the bank you need to insure against blue moon events. Outages are rare lately but sh!t happens and it can be game over player 1 if you blow your bank.

The 'boosting growth' thing is fine but psychology also plays a big part if you increase stakes too fast, best to let it happen organically. It's not a get rich quick game.

[ShaunWhite]

Nice

My last deposit was £10 on 15/10/20.

That turned out well

Mine was a grand but got pretty low before the tide turned. It was a potential 'opportunity' I wasn't going to keep ploughing money into. When it was gone it was gone, and at around £200 I thought I was toast.
I'd gambled on Betfair from 2000 to 2006 and did so badly I didn't log on again till 2016 Let's just say it takes an eye watering loss to not want to log on again for 10yrs. But when you do you do it very differently.

[Acheron]

Thanks Shaun.

Well, it'll be tennis-only and perhaps it's my skill level but my growth estimates are like 10x slower than your numbers... Sure it may turn out that things come a lot easier but it pays to err on the cautious side and I've already got a reasonable handle on various aspects of my expectancy.

It's not a get rich quick game.

Absolutely and please don't get me wrong there, only if my estimates are anything to go by I could be looking at a snail's pace... Again, I might be way off, but I think it's hard to really tell.