UK Economy

[mister man]

jeff...
like i said you are not in the real world..

i defy anyone in gov or media to denounce my stats...they cant they came from the gov..

and are up to date...

heres an example, gov figs and other sources say the poverty line is £110 of income after housing/council tax... to pay for bills, elec/food,clothing etc, etc etc.
Unemployment allowance is £65 or roughly 40% below the povert line. they know this, hence the 5% rise in Job seekers allowance announced in last weeks review ( to avoid more riots).
but they are happy for people to and ministers to constantly quote and believe benefits are too high, they pander to the ignorant,its mostly a media myth...
you try and live on £65 a week after rent n council tax for more than a month or two, it cant be done.
i couldnt do it,nor i suspect you, people now are looking at really long term unemployment...

in the past it was ok to starve people back to work cos there were jobs out their, now they know whatever some people do they wont find work for many many months, hence they cannot really justify someone whos paid into the system for 25 yrs getting nothing much out apart from slow death, when they have such low chance of getting work..
dont believe the hype matey, or the government... the freedom of information act is their for all to get the facts...

[Iron]

Hi Mister Man

I have lived on 65 quid a week plus housing benefit (which covered only a portion of my rent) in the past, and I agree that it's not a barrel of laughs.

If I were to sign on I'd go onto contribution-based JSA (because of the amount of National Insurance I've paid into the system over the years), and I'd have to pay for my own presciptions and dental treatment (whereas someone who'd spent their life on the dole wouldn't have to!).

But on the other end of the scale, I once worked with a guy who had been in two minds about accepting the 18K job with the company he and I worked for, because he was making more on benefits (he had 2 kids)...

Whilst it's good to show compassion towards people who have been made unemployed for no fault of their own and earnestly want to get back to work, if you make the benefits too high then people will deliberately mess up job interviews and live a cushy existance at the taxpayers' expense! And the fact is that we're broke as a country, so the government couldn't afford to pay the unemployed more money even if they wanted to...

Jeff

[mister man]

Jeff
dont disagree,
but what of the genuine, they suffer for feckless.

a touch of reality would not go a miss.

JSA is now 7.5 % of ave wage,in the last big recession,late 70s it was 12.5%...

yes a few, play the system well and get the headlines (scroungers etc), most dont and suffer the same scrounging label when in despair and my voluntary work tells me are close to or have already attempted suicide,or been succesful at suicide.
not a barrel of laughs !!!!! its slow death.. with no jobs to go too..
more riots and higher insurance, health costs, policing costs,social care, jail costs, and more division in the uk leading to more of the above are the costs...

its totally false economy...

and youve not answered, my figs are bang on, so it will happen...

[Iron]

Jeff
dont disagree,
but what of the genuine, they suffer for feckless.

Let's say JSA were raised to 200 quid per week. I bet a significant proportion of people would be quite happy to just take money from the state and make no effort to find work.

I can't deny that the system penalises the guy who's paid taxes all his life, was made redundant for no fault of his own, and wants to get back into work ASAP. That's unfortunate, but unavoidable IMHO.

Yes, some people will turn to crime, as you don't have to worry about food or shelter if you're locked up. And I'm aware that it costs something ridiculous like 40K to lock someone up for a year. But I don't think there are many people in prison who committed a crime to get off the streets. And you could also argue that, if fewer people can afford to get drunk on a Friday night, then there will be fewer alcohol-fuelled crimes committed.

and youve not answered, my figs are bang on, so it will happen...

I've nothing to answer - I didn't say your stats were wrong!

Jeff

[mister man]

Jeff,
my sats are right so how do you justify your statement about 25% getting into work in the next month or three..

[Iron]

I've already said that it wasn't my stat - I was merely quoting the BBC!

You can complain to the BBC if you disagree with the stat - http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/ - although don't be surprised if you feel they don't properly consider your arguments (I write as someone who's made quite a few complaints to them - so many that they are no longer willing to consider any that relate to left wing bias!).

Jeff

Jeff,
my sats are right so how do you justify your statement about 25% getting into work in the next month or three..

[mister man]

Jeff
dont disagree,
but what of the genuine, they suffer for feckless.

Let's say JSA were raised to 200 quid per week. I bet a significant proportion of people would be quite happy to just take money from the state and make no effort to find work.

I can't deny that the system penalises the guy who's paid taxes all his life, was made redundant for no fault of his own, and wants to get back into work ASAP. That's unfortunate, but unavoidable IMHO.

Yes, some people will turn to crime, as you don't have to worry about food or shelter if you're locked up. And I'm aware that it costs something ridiculous like 40K to lock someone up for a year. But I don't think there are many people in prison who committed a crime to get off the streets. And you could also argue that, if fewer people can afford to get drunk on a Friday night, then there will be fewer alcohol-fuelled crimes committed.

and youve not answered, my figs are bang on, so it will happen...

I've nothing to answer - I didn't say your stats were wrong!

Jeff

a more uncaring reply it would be hard to find..

my work shows me a man has paid in 250k gets 6k out a year, or if hes on the dole or for 40 yrs getshis money back.

people commit crime to avoid paying for food n shelter !!! many do it out of DESPERATION...

No wonder we are in the mess we are...

[mister man]

perhaps you shouldnt quote stats you dont believe in then...

i didnt see you saying i dont agree with em, until they were challenged.

you cant have it both ways...

[Iron]

In the words of Basil Fawlty, I could spend the rest of my life having this conversation!

I quoted some stats from a reliable (if biased) source, without having any reason to believe that they were inaccurate.

Not being an expert in unemployment stats, I'm not the best person to comment on whether your stats on those the BBC used paint a better picture of the unemployment situation...

Jeff

perhaps you shouldnt quote stats you dont believe in then...

i didnt see you saying i dont agree with em, until they were challenged.

you cant have it both ways...

[mister man]

good we are both agreed at last

[mister man]

just a reminder

the stats are 2.6m unemployed officially, with that same amount hidden in ill health not claiming and in alleged training. so approx 5m unemployed in reality.

approx 0.5m jobs available, but many of these are self employed vacancies, part time etc, real fig is approx 0.35m of real jobs.

long term unemployed is over 1m on official figs, real fig is close to 3m...

your figs of 25% etc getting in work in a few months are sorry to say..... fantasy...

it would mean even in official lie speak, that 650,000 people will take 350,000 jobs. !!!!!

job share gone mad perhaps

even facturing in churn, it would mean that 650,000 off the figs of the mostly not long term unemployed or officially (33% !!!!...650k of 2.6 -1m) are replaced by 650,000 others on them at best, and that 300,000 jobs have been conjured up by a magic wand.

sorry matey u speak balldocks, and pure fantasy...

if u av a job, keep it, at any cost, the public sector strikers are showing how insulated they have been fromreality, by their mad action, most wont get other work if they leave, if they do it will be at less pay anyway, let alone work where they get gold plated pensions paid for by the rest of society...

[Iron]

Not really...

Just so I'm clear, if we take 100 random people on JSA, how many do you predict will be back in work in 3 months' time?

BTW, your depiction of my attitude as uncaring is incorrect. We can pay the unemployed more, but where's the money coming from? The NHS budget? The police? Social services? Or do we just borrow some money, and leave ourselves with an even bigger debt for our children and our grandchildren to pay off?

Remember that I write as someone who may soon be on the dole. I'd love to get more money from the state, but I recognise that there are bigger issues at stake...

Jeff

good we are both agreed at last

[mister man]

wheres the money from !!!

savings in health costs, policing costs, social services costs, etc etc etc.. wouold pay for it 5 fold
but if you want to take that as non savings. heres plan b, not something these wnk breaks will ever admit too
a 1% saving on bankers bonuses would pay for all the training and investment for the unemployed of whatever age, that could lead to gainful employement for those that need it or even those that only want it.
this government speak with fork tongue like NO OTHER in my lifetime..

[Iron]

wheres the money from !!!

Let's say you pay an extra tenner a week to the 2.62 million claimants.

2.62 million * £10 * 52 weeks = ~1.3 billion pounds per year

Where do you think we can find that kind of money from in the current economic climate?

We'd need to borrow more money or cut something else to fund it... I'd be happy for the government to cancel Britain's foreign aid and pull out of the EU, saving billions, but I'm not sure I'd give the money saved to the unemployed. I'd be more inclined to use it to help reduce Britain's deficit - we're spending more than we're making, rather than reducing the national debt, and that's an unsustainable situation long-term...

a 1% saving on bankers bonuses would pay for all the training and investment for the unemployed of whatever age, that could lead to gainful employement for those that need it or even those that only want it.

It would also lead to gainful employment in the banking sector in Singapore, as the banks who contribute so much to the UK exechequer relocate overseas...

Jeff

PS You haven't answered my question re. what an unemployed person's percentage chances are of finding work within 3 months.

[superfrank]

Standard Chartered predicts 1.3% contraction in 2012... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16136558