http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... arity.html
I'm all for this if the concept of proper risk assessment and management is taught. If kids learn to embrace risk and make more rational choices, that can only be a good thing.
However, I fear all they'd get in practice is government propaganda which associates risk taking (either by banks or individuals) with financial ruin...
Jeff
Pupils should learn about gambling, says charity
Isn't maths already compulsory up to the age of 16?
It was when I was at school (although that was a long time ago - just thinking how long ago makes me depressed!
).
BTW, I think there's a case for making maths at school more interesting by teaching how it applies to games of chance. If it's done properly, it will discourage kids from using bookies and slot machines, as they'll know the odds are stacked against them, and will encourage them to think about entrepreneurship, and to challenge their psychological biases when making decisions. But because of the way the press would sensationalise such a measure, it won't happen IMHO...
Jeff
It was when I was at school (although that was a long time ago - just thinking how long ago makes me depressed!
).BTW, I think there's a case for making maths at school more interesting by teaching how it applies to games of chance. If it's done properly, it will discourage kids from using bookies and slot machines, as they'll know the odds are stacked against them, and will encourage them to think about entrepreneurship, and to challenge their psychological biases when making decisions. But because of the way the press would sensationalise such a measure, it won't happen IMHO...
Jeff
to75ne wrote: "could". they should all being learning maths from their first day to their last. it should be compulsory at every year/stage of their school lifes not an option.
it was compulsory when my lot were there but, some children who showed no interest in maths,in particular in my youngest sons year, never bothered to turn up for maths, and the school seemed happy with that!!!!!
i agree it does not seem to be a bad idea teaching them probabilities with respect to gambling, also other practical matters they will be exposed to such as, calculating loan interest rates, credit card rates etc.
sadly far too many leave school and/or uni totally unprepared in these areas.
i agree it does not seem to be a bad idea teaching them probabilities with respect to gambling, also other practical matters they will be exposed to such as, calculating loan interest rates, credit card rates etc.
sadly far too many leave school and/or uni totally unprepared in these areas.
Although gambling will teach you about risk and probability (and maths ingeneral) a lot quickly and more effeciently, our loss averse tendancy can take over and some time create havoc as this FT article about rogue traders very well explains:
What makes a rogue trader?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/cbff2b02-1bcc ... z1fTO6e2VX
What makes a rogue trader?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/cbff2b02-1bcc ... z1fTO6e2VX
If schools are letting kids decide whether to turn up for compulsory lessons, things have seriously gone downhill!
It's like the lunatics are running the asylum! I wouldn't want to return to the days where a child could be caned for a spelling mistake, but these days schools are powerless to discipline kids!
Jeff
to75ne wrote:it was compulsory when my lot were there but, some children who showed no interest in maths,in particular in my youngest sons year, never bothered to turn up for maths, and the school seemed happy with that!!!!!
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lilgreenback
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:28 am
School’s are powerless to discipline kids / school’s are letting kids decide whether to turn up!
That’s a slight contradiction. The real issue here is parental attitude towards education and how they value the roll that the Schools bring.
This is not just evident in areas depravation or poor housing etc; the same attitude exists in affluent areas. Just as some low functioning family will have the belief that it’s OK for “Johnny” to skive off every Friday. The same attitude is prevalent when Mr & Mrs Leafy Suburbs are being challenged for the second family holiday that they want to go on, going over the 10 “authorised” or agreed days leave outside of the school holidays.
The great misconception by parents is that “they” authorise their child’s absence from school….actually It is the Head Teacher who authorises the absence by either accepting the reason given or not.
The great “rant” in the tabloids every now and then about Truancy is just that.
What they should be looking at is the levels of Authorised Absence rather than Unauthorised Absence. Kids don’t attend school for very many reasons unlocking what is preventing them from engaging with education is far more challenging and does not make for good headlines.
There are a lot of differing things wrong with schools and the education system as well as a lot of things that are very positive they are just a microcosm of our society.
But bringing those who don’t want to or can’t be bothered to conform into line is time consuming and expensive, the cost of not doing so is even more so in the long run.
Very often a comment kids will make will be “I don’t want to work for £3.65 an hour in Maccie D’s and why bother when he can make £200 a day selling class A’s”. The argument with kids is sometimes then lost.
As Euler said “They could always learn maths” as least they could count up how much they could make in a month and how long it would be before they got out once inside.
That’s a slight contradiction. The real issue here is parental attitude towards education and how they value the roll that the Schools bring.
This is not just evident in areas depravation or poor housing etc; the same attitude exists in affluent areas. Just as some low functioning family will have the belief that it’s OK for “Johnny” to skive off every Friday. The same attitude is prevalent when Mr & Mrs Leafy Suburbs are being challenged for the second family holiday that they want to go on, going over the 10 “authorised” or agreed days leave outside of the school holidays.
The great misconception by parents is that “they” authorise their child’s absence from school….actually It is the Head Teacher who authorises the absence by either accepting the reason given or not.
The great “rant” in the tabloids every now and then about Truancy is just that.
What they should be looking at is the levels of Authorised Absence rather than Unauthorised Absence. Kids don’t attend school for very many reasons unlocking what is preventing them from engaging with education is far more challenging and does not make for good headlines.
There are a lot of differing things wrong with schools and the education system as well as a lot of things that are very positive they are just a microcosm of our society.
But bringing those who don’t want to or can’t be bothered to conform into line is time consuming and expensive, the cost of not doing so is even more so in the long run.
Very often a comment kids will make will be “I don’t want to work for £3.65 an hour in Maccie D’s and why bother when he can make £200 a day selling class A’s”. The argument with kids is sometimes then lost.
As Euler said “They could always learn maths” as least they could count up how much they could make in a month and how long it would be before they got out once inside.
I disagree.
Schools let kids decide whether to turn up because they're powerless to discipline said kids.
When my dad was at school, you could get the cane for handing in shoddy work. These days, a pupils could tell their teacher to f off, and they'd probably be gently encouraged to consider how what they say could impact on others! It's gone from one extreme to the other!
I know it's cliched, but we need to put more emphasis in our culture on responsibilities rather than rights. When I was at uni, I studied why Japan was so successful industrially. One theory is that it's due to attitude of the people. I was once told by a Japanese guy that the attitudes shown in the film Gung Ho are reflected in reality. Over there, I get the impression that, if a kid misbehaves in school over there, they feel a sense of shame that they've let the community down, rather than wearing their deviance as a badge of honour.
There's a reason why so many British employers prefer to employ Eastern European staff...
Jeff
Schools let kids decide whether to turn up because they're powerless to discipline said kids.
When my dad was at school, you could get the cane for handing in shoddy work. These days, a pupils could tell their teacher to f off, and they'd probably be gently encouraged to consider how what they say could impact on others! It's gone from one extreme to the other!
I know it's cliched, but we need to put more emphasis in our culture on responsibilities rather than rights. When I was at uni, I studied why Japan was so successful industrially. One theory is that it's due to attitude of the people. I was once told by a Japanese guy that the attitudes shown in the film Gung Ho are reflected in reality. Over there, I get the impression that, if a kid misbehaves in school over there, they feel a sense of shame that they've let the community down, rather than wearing their deviance as a badge of honour.
There's a reason why so many British employers prefer to employ Eastern European staff...
Jeff
lilgreenback wrote:School’s are powerless to discipline kids / school’s are letting kids decide whether to turn up!
That’s a slight contradiction.
i can see both your point of view jeff and lilgreenbacks.
my brood all went to a good school (catholic church school), in a good area, the vast majority of pupils appeared to come from fairly affluent homes (an assumption).
but as i posted earlier, some children did not turn up at some lessons and the school were quite happy they did not. when no3 son was about 14 this was having a bad influence on him, as some of his friends who did not wish to attend a particular lesson did not, he decided why should he. i had a real bad time with the little git, finally did sort him out, but the school were no help at all.
other parents were either unaware, and if they were, they obviously did not think it was of any importance.
i agree discipline is important, but you cant really blame children if they are not disciplined by their parents first and foremost. in my opinion discipline in schools is a different concept from what i would call discipline.
when children are there, they have some strange notions (strange to me), about what is acceptable and what is not acceptable drummed into them. for instance its ok drop out of maths because i dont like it, as long as the art teacher will let me do extra art work during the maths period thats fine.
my brood all went to a good school (catholic church school), in a good area, the vast majority of pupils appeared to come from fairly affluent homes (an assumption).
but as i posted earlier, some children did not turn up at some lessons and the school were quite happy they did not. when no3 son was about 14 this was having a bad influence on him, as some of his friends who did not wish to attend a particular lesson did not, he decided why should he. i had a real bad time with the little git, finally did sort him out, but the school were no help at all.
other parents were either unaware, and if they were, they obviously did not think it was of any importance.
i agree discipline is important, but you cant really blame children if they are not disciplined by their parents first and foremost. in my opinion discipline in schools is a different concept from what i would call discipline.
when children are there, they have some strange notions (strange to me), about what is acceptable and what is not acceptable drummed into them. for instance its ok drop out of maths because i dont like it, as long as the art teacher will let me do extra art work during the maths period thats fine.
Hi Tony
I agree that kids need discipline. But these days, if a parent gives a kid a good hiding, it's classed as child abuse!
These days, kids are sheltered from reality. They are mollycoddled from a young age, not expected to do anything as boring and uncool as hard work, and you get a pass just for turning up. Unfortunately, as they'll later discover, the real world is a little more demanding in its expectations...
Jeff
I agree that kids need discipline. But these days, if a parent gives a kid a good hiding, it's classed as child abuse!
These days, kids are sheltered from reality. They are mollycoddled from a young age, not expected to do anything as boring and uncool as hard work, and you get a pass just for turning up. Unfortunately, as they'll later discover, the real world is a little more demanding in its expectations...
Jeff
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lilgreenback
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:28 am
Whether a kid turns up at school or not has very little to do with the school, where does the child come from initially! It is the parents responsibility to ensure that a child is in school, on time and in a fit state to learn.
The sanctions are not laid at the feet of the child but at the parents. It is the parent who is summoned before the courts not the child. In that senario it is not the School, the Head Teacher or Governing Body who decides whether or not to Prosecute but the Local Authority.
As with discipline very often the kids you are talking about have been on the wrong end of too many good hidings from an early age hence the effect is meaningless. You can beat a dog every day and in the AM it will still wag it's tail when you walk in the room.
I would agree that a number of the things that you have mentioned are prevelant but this has been pervasive through society, again where do these kids learn to behave in the way that they do. Welcome to the world we have created.
Last summers riots are a prime example of a few hijacking the masses and look at the fallout from that. If the politicians had the will to do something positive to address a number of issues and really grasped the nettle things may change.
The sanctions are not laid at the feet of the child but at the parents. It is the parent who is summoned before the courts not the child. In that senario it is not the School, the Head Teacher or Governing Body who decides whether or not to Prosecute but the Local Authority.
As with discipline very often the kids you are talking about have been on the wrong end of too many good hidings from an early age hence the effect is meaningless. You can beat a dog every day and in the AM it will still wag it's tail when you walk in the room.
I would agree that a number of the things that you have mentioned are prevelant but this has been pervasive through society, again where do these kids learn to behave in the way that they do. Welcome to the world we have created.
Last summers riots are a prime example of a few hijacking the masses and look at the fallout from that. If the politicians had the will to do something positive to address a number of issues and really grasped the nettle things may change.
What sort of thing are you thinking of?
Jeff
Jeff
lilgreenback wrote: Last summers riots are a prime example of a few hijacking the masses and look at the fallout from that. If the politicians had the will to do something positive to address a number of issues and really grasped the nettle things may change.
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lilgreenback
- Posts: 211
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:28 am
Many theories from so many people with some sort of 'ology degree the real reason IMO, they thought they could get away with it. The main reason there is no deterent, add that to people who have nothing to lose anyway, what happens. It's the same sort of issue in schools, discipline or respect or whatever can only come from one place (you mention that in your bit about Japan) it's taught at home. The politicians don't care their kids get private education. I'm not saying PE is bad thing if you can afford it good look but lets not be hypocritical take Diane Abbott prime example!