I've been trading & using BetAngel for a year and a half now. I've had mix levels of success - lots of ups and downs, but overall I have lost a fair bit of money. The large majority (70%) of that lost money is trying to recoup money by backing low odds horses to get money back. Logically and with a clear head its a flawed strategy, yet in the heat of the moment and with frustration its a bad habit I return to.
Its something concerns me personally because its effectively gambling.
I am going to take another break from trading after loosing more money. I'll probably take a week off then begin looking at races again without spending any money.
But my point here and I'd really appreciate hearing the thoughts of others, if they experience similar issues and how they keep themselves in control of their trading?
BTW. Peter's recent post about "losing strategies" thread, was I thought an excellent post mainly because I think his overall point was that, while you may loose money trading, you shouldn't lose lots of money. If most people are honest with themselves (I have been) most lost money is through lack of control.
Remaining in control
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CaerMyrddin
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am
Spot what you are doing wrong and stop doing it. It looks like you have a clear idea about what it is, so maybe the hard work is done?
Now, bear this in mind: it's your money. Don't hand it to other people trading live (if you don't have an edge!) or correcting what went wrong previously.
Accepting losses is crucial. Take it on the chin and move one. There are plenty markets, plenty opportunities and many many years to trade. Don't beat up yourself when you're down and don't think you're too good when things go well.
Discipline yourself and wear sunscreen
Now, bear this in mind: it's your money. Don't hand it to other people trading live (if you don't have an edge!) or correcting what went wrong previously.
Accepting losses is crucial. Take it on the chin and move one. There are plenty markets, plenty opportunities and many many years to trade. Don't beat up yourself when you're down and don't think you're too good when things go well.
Discipline yourself and wear sunscreen
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psycho040253
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:29 pm
Stevequalstevequal wrote:I've been trading & using BetAngel for a year and a half now. I've had mix levels of success - lots of ups and downs, but overall I have lost a fair bit of money. The large majority (70%) of that lost money is trying to recoup money by backing low odds horses to get money back. Logically and with a clear head its a flawed strategy, yet in the heat of the moment and with frustration its a bad habit I return to.
Its something concerns me personally because its effectively gambling.
I am going to take another break from trading after loosing more money. I'll probably take a week off then begin looking at races again without spending any money.
But my point here and I'd really appreciate hearing the thoughts of others, if they experience similar issues and how they keep themselves in control of their trading?
BTW. Peter's recent post about "losing strategies" thread, was I thought an excellent post mainly because I think his overall point was that, while you may loose money trading, you shouldn't lose lots of money. If most people are honest with themselves (I have been) most lost money is through lack of control.
At the risk of being slotted and ostracised for ever more for this post, here goes:
You mention that you have lost a 'fair bit of money' trading. I have no idea what a fair bit is and it's not my business either. If you can afford to lose it and will not suffer unduly as a result, that's one thing. If you can't afford it and will suffer unduly, that's an entirely different matter.
I suspect that there is no point in anyone telling you to 'get a grip of yourself and stop chasing your losses'. If you could, you would already have done that.
I therefore have to assume that you are not able to do this by yourself.
As I see it, if you cannot afford to sustain your losses without undue suffering, then stay away from trading.
If you cannot afford to sustain your losses without undue suffering and cannot stay away from trading, then I respectfully suggest that you get some professional help.
You remind me of a good friend of mine. He chased his losses by backing shorties or doubling up. At one stage, he was up £250K in double quick time. Then, he lost the whole of the £250K plus £300K on top when his loss-recovery strategies went pear-shaped. He told me that the bulk of his losses were the result of him losing control.
It's also interesting that you consider placing bets on shorties, in order to recover losses, to be gambling. It therefore appears that you consider that trading isn't?
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
For trading not to be considered gambling, it would need to have an outcome that is certain. If the outcome is certain, then, why can 30% of your losses be attributed to trading.
What ever you choose to do, I wish you the very best of luck.
Kindest regards
Psycho
It's always so important to seperate gambling and trading. Trading only yields a small % profit on turnover so its a case of lots of little amounts adding up to bigger ones. If you trade £100 at 2's you will make £1 after greening. If you punt that stake and lose it that's 100 +ve trades down the pan.
Maybe you could set up some automation to automatically exit at the off to stop you from being tempted to go in-running?
The line to profit when trading is so thin you should just focus on doing simple things well and you will cross it. Don't forget this is a tough time of year as well so better times are not far away.
Maybe you could set up some automation to automatically exit at the off to stop you from being tempted to go in-running?
The line to profit when trading is so thin you should just focus on doing simple things well and you will cross it. Don't forget this is a tough time of year as well so better times are not far away.
When I started out, I struggled to emotionally deal with trading losses. It was so frustrating not to get a run for my money, which at least I did with a punt.
I remember one occasion when I traded on Arsenal vs West Ham in a PL match. Arsenal had been backed into 1.38 before the off, whilst I'm sat waiting at 1.42. It was a £20 loss if I traded out, but I thought Arsenal will be 1.42 after 5 mins, I'll go 'in play' and wait. 90 seconds later, it's 1-0, and I've just done £2000!
Needless to say, I've never done that again. I realised that you need to look at the big picture when trading, because losses will always happen.
Never chase trading losses, Steve. I'm sure Nick Leeson would vouch for that!
I remember one occasion when I traded on Arsenal vs West Ham in a PL match. Arsenal had been backed into 1.38 before the off, whilst I'm sat waiting at 1.42. It was a £20 loss if I traded out, but I thought Arsenal will be 1.42 after 5 mins, I'll go 'in play' and wait. 90 seconds later, it's 1-0, and I've just done £2000!
Needless to say, I've never done that again. I realised that you need to look at the big picture when trading, because losses will always happen.
Never chase trading losses, Steve. I'm sure Nick Leeson would vouch for that!
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convoysur-2
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:00 am
Hi Steve
i can honestly say ive been where u are many times ,made so many mistakes and lost alot of money,as im sure we all have,
however im not one bit sorry ,because ive learned what not to do,the bigest mistake i made was first getting in to horse racing trading ,i believe its the hardest ,and most frustrating,and i liked to gamble.this is not a good combination,
here is a suggestion to u ... what i did to break the bad streak ,i banned myself from horse market trading for 3 months ,and looked at simpler markets ,over under 2.5 .and football markets ,once u pay attention to the book fighting towards 100% and back to 101.5% its much easier to trade ,ok most of the time its boring as hell ,but its better than losing ,and believe me there is money to be made there ,some games have 4-6 million traded before a ball is kicked and hundreds of thousands traded on 2.5 goals. i went back to horse racing but with a different view now i look at the cards the night before and make a decision on what i will trade the next day ,i stick to small fields not more than 8 runners and im out at 5 mins to go ,before the crazys arrive,
dont give up..not after 1.5 years and all that money u will get there ,just look at the big picture ,
Regards
Marc
i can honestly say ive been where u are many times ,made so many mistakes and lost alot of money,as im sure we all have,
however im not one bit sorry ,because ive learned what not to do,the bigest mistake i made was first getting in to horse racing trading ,i believe its the hardest ,and most frustrating,and i liked to gamble.this is not a good combination,
here is a suggestion to u ... what i did to break the bad streak ,i banned myself from horse market trading for 3 months ,and looked at simpler markets ,over under 2.5 .and football markets ,once u pay attention to the book fighting towards 100% and back to 101.5% its much easier to trade ,ok most of the time its boring as hell ,but its better than losing ,and believe me there is money to be made there ,some games have 4-6 million traded before a ball is kicked and hundreds of thousands traded on 2.5 goals. i went back to horse racing but with a different view now i look at the cards the night before and make a decision on what i will trade the next day ,i stick to small fields not more than 8 runners and im out at 5 mins to go ,before the crazys arrive,
dont give up..not after 1.5 years and all that money u will get there ,just look at the big picture ,
Regards
Marc
Could stevequal's be the bomber!? 
May be some of us are just not psychologically suited to trading? The trouble with the pre-event trading is the extreme frustration that can occur when you don't have an edge - you can sit there for hours racking up small gains, than one bad beat wipes out all the gains and then some. Next day, hours and hours more of effort for small gains, one bad beat and it's all flushed down the toilet again. Rinse repeat this for months on end and you can really see why so few people can stick that out.
May be some of us are just not psychologically suited to trading? The trouble with the pre-event trading is the extreme frustration that can occur when you don't have an edge - you can sit there for hours racking up small gains, than one bad beat wipes out all the gains and then some. Next day, hours and hours more of effort for small gains, one bad beat and it's all flushed down the toilet again. Rinse repeat this for months on end and you can really see why so few people can stick that out.
Excellent Postpsycho040253 wrote:Stevequalstevequal wrote:I've been trading & using BetAngel for a year and a half now. I've had mix levels of success - lots of ups and downs, but overall I have lost a fair bit of money. The large majority (70%) of that lost money is trying to recoup money by backing low odds horses to get money back. Logically and with a clear head its a flawed strategy, yet in the heat of the moment and with frustration its a bad habit I return to.
Its something concerns me personally because its effectively gambling.
I am going to take another break from trading after loosing more money. I'll probably take a week off then begin looking at races again without spending any money.
But my point here and I'd really appreciate hearing the thoughts of others, if they experience similar issues and how they keep themselves in control of their trading?
BTW. Peter's recent post about "losing strategies" thread, was I thought an excellent post mainly because I think his overall point was that, while you may loose money trading, you shouldn't lose lots of money. If most people are honest with themselves (I have been) most lost money is through lack of control.
At the risk of being slotted and ostracised for ever more for this post, here goes:
You mention that you have lost a 'fair bit of money' trading. I have no idea what a fair bit is and it's not my business either. If you can afford to lose it and will not suffer unduly as a result, that's one thing. If you can't afford it and will suffer unduly, that's an entirely different matter.
I suspect that there is no point in anyone telling you to 'get a grip of yourself and stop chasing your losses'. If you could, you would already have done that.
I therefore have to assume that you are not able to do this by yourself.
As I see it, if you cannot afford to sustain your losses without undue suffering, then stay away from trading.
If you cannot afford to sustain your losses without undue suffering and cannot stay away from trading, then I respectfully suggest that you get some professional help.
You remind me of a good friend of mine. He chased his losses by backing shorties or doubling up. At one stage, he was up £250K in double quick time. Then, he lost the whole of the £250K plus £300K on top when his loss-recovery strategies went pear-shaped. He told me that the bulk of his losses were the result of him losing control.
It's also interesting that you consider placing bets on shorties, in order to recover losses, to be gambling. It therefore appears that you consider that trading isn't?
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
For trading not to be considered gambling, it would need to have an outcome that is certain. If the outcome is certain, then, why can 30% of your losses be attributed to trading.
What ever you choose to do, I wish you the very best of luck.
Kindest regards
Psycho
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convoysur-2
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:00 am
Hi ZINYATTA .
you are right ,but there are also ups as well let me give you an example ,its now 11.56pm ive just traded a market for 2 hours while i watched a movie ,i keep betangel open and make my brouser just a little smaller so i can see my balance on the bottom right corner so i know when i get filled and then shoot the bank back into the market,ive just greened up on 4 runners 19.88 on each ,ascot 1.30 and there is only 6,450 euro traded on the event .i only need 4 trades like that a day and i have a weeks wages is small when we factor in losses,but a profit none the less and i can live modestly of it ,now i will pick a football match for 2 moro where the draw hasnt drifted yet and lay the draw for all i have and green up around 11 or mid-day ,i know traders wouldent look at small pickings like this ,but for me its how i survive,i cant function in mad pre-off trading and dont have the bank to take a big hit,my point is to the origional poster of the trend is that there are other ways to do it .you dont have to run with the crowd ,stick some money in over night at redicoulas prices ull be suprised how it gets matched ,like brilliant barca in the 1.30 at ascot ,im bookmaking all night and im laying brilliant barca at 70/1 that guy that put that money there is either dutching or putting the 70/1 back bet in as a lay at 34/1 so we all the market work .i prefer to do it while u all sleep and i have little or no competion .steve sit back ,relax look at more ways ,they are there ,pm me ill give u something to work on,its a small edge but i dont mind helping someone break the ice,i apreachiate the help some people gave me ,u know who u are ..thanks
Marc
you are right ,but there are also ups as well let me give you an example ,its now 11.56pm ive just traded a market for 2 hours while i watched a movie ,i keep betangel open and make my brouser just a little smaller so i can see my balance on the bottom right corner so i know when i get filled and then shoot the bank back into the market,ive just greened up on 4 runners 19.88 on each ,ascot 1.30 and there is only 6,450 euro traded on the event .i only need 4 trades like that a day and i have a weeks wages is small when we factor in losses,but a profit none the less and i can live modestly of it ,now i will pick a football match for 2 moro where the draw hasnt drifted yet and lay the draw for all i have and green up around 11 or mid-day ,i know traders wouldent look at small pickings like this ,but for me its how i survive,i cant function in mad pre-off trading and dont have the bank to take a big hit,my point is to the origional poster of the trend is that there are other ways to do it .you dont have to run with the crowd ,stick some money in over night at redicoulas prices ull be suprised how it gets matched ,like brilliant barca in the 1.30 at ascot ,im bookmaking all night and im laying brilliant barca at 70/1 that guy that put that money there is either dutching or putting the 70/1 back bet in as a lay at 34/1 so we all the market work .i prefer to do it while u all sleep and i have little or no competion .steve sit back ,relax look at more ways ,they are there ,pm me ill give u something to work on,its a small edge but i dont mind helping someone break the ice,i apreachiate the help some people gave me ,u know who u are ..thanks
Marc
When you say small gains what percentages are we talking about, Pre horse race markets i swing trade and can avaerage about 0.5% - 3% of my total capital.Zenyatta wrote:Could stevequal's be the bomber!?
May be some of us are just not psychologically suited to trading? The trouble with the pre-event trading is the extreme frustration that can occur when you don't have an edge - you can sit there for hours racking up small gains, than one bad beat wipes out all the gains and then some. Next day, hours and hours more of effort for small gains, one bad beat and it's all flushed down the toilet again. Rinse repeat this for months on end and you can really see why so few people can stick that out.
Trading is all about approach and dicipline a hard thing to master
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Groovyelms
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 7:42 am
excellent thread and points of view..
Like I guess alot of us I too am going through that phase of "losing controll" and the frustration that ensues..Identifying that proccess means I had a reason for things not working out! But how do I now alter the aproach to trading knowing what I now know?
I purchased a copy of the "The daily trading coach" by Brett N Steenbarger (wiley trading) over a year ago and over the last 3 months have been applying his wisdom to these personal trading issues, Slowly I have started to approach the markets differently calmly accepting certain truths which we all know "ad nauseam". His wisdom arms you with methods to overcome our personal trading issues and I really feel it working effectively.
Curiously I had not followed this advice for the last couple of days and felt some inner stress yesterday.. and then took a mother and father of a hit on the bank!!! Why? looking back at the video this am reveals where the problem started!!! familliar territory to us all. Poor Prerace trades leads to frustration leads to worse leads to going In running it goes against and now we have a disaster, all been there I guess!!
so I go back though my records reread relevent stuff and reapply his ideas to alter that mindsett. To quote Lesson 1 "Draw On emotion To Become A Change Agent" followed by lots of wisdom on how to acheive this.
To quote "The enemy of change is relapse:falling back into old unproductive ways of thinking and bahaving. Without the momentum of emotion, relapse is the norm"
Yesterdays loss confirmed this to me asolutely!
His book I believe contains very powerfull information; and it is available to us all to use as we see fit and appropiate.
Stevequal, you might think about this book
Groovy
Like I guess alot of us I too am going through that phase of "losing controll" and the frustration that ensues..Identifying that proccess means I had a reason for things not working out! But how do I now alter the aproach to trading knowing what I now know?
I purchased a copy of the "The daily trading coach" by Brett N Steenbarger (wiley trading) over a year ago and over the last 3 months have been applying his wisdom to these personal trading issues, Slowly I have started to approach the markets differently calmly accepting certain truths which we all know "ad nauseam". His wisdom arms you with methods to overcome our personal trading issues and I really feel it working effectively.
Curiously I had not followed this advice for the last couple of days and felt some inner stress yesterday.. and then took a mother and father of a hit on the bank!!! Why? looking back at the video this am reveals where the problem started!!! familliar territory to us all. Poor Prerace trades leads to frustration leads to worse leads to going In running it goes against and now we have a disaster, all been there I guess!!
so I go back though my records reread relevent stuff and reapply his ideas to alter that mindsett. To quote Lesson 1 "Draw On emotion To Become A Change Agent" followed by lots of wisdom on how to acheive this.
To quote "The enemy of change is relapse:falling back into old unproductive ways of thinking and bahaving. Without the momentum of emotion, relapse is the norm"
Yesterdays loss confirmed this to me asolutely!
His book I believe contains very powerfull information; and it is available to us all to use as we see fit and appropiate.
Stevequal, you might think about this book
Groovy
It has taken me a while to take in everyone's comments this morning, but thanks to everyone for their advice.
There are a few that stick out:
I don't think this guy is a trader. Just a heavy punter, playing with the exchange.
There are a few that stick out:
This is something I have been trying to focus on in the past month. There is no rush, some things take time. One of the problems is that the more loss you build up the more quickly you want to get it back. I've taken on some extra freelance work (I am self employed) to help reduce my losses. This way I feel I have recovered some of the loss and reduced the pressure on myself."There are plenty markets, plenty opportunities and many many years to trade."
This is by far the most difficult issue to both except and judge. My initial thought was that this doesn't apply to me, but if I am continuing to make the same mistakes and lose money, I clearly have some sort of problem.If you cannot afford to sustain your losses without undue suffering and cannot stay away from trading, then I respectfully suggest that you get some professional help.
Placing bets without any strategy is really gambling and that is what I am doing. I am not doing anything other than hoping that my evens chance comes in. Trading, I believe is more strategic, buy high sell slow."It's also interesting that you consider placing bets on shorties, in order to recover losses, to be gambling. It therefore appears that you consider that trading isn't?"
Understanding how much money I can potentially win or lose is a big part of the problem. I whaven't been adjusting my stake size according to the price. I would back £200 at 2's and £200 at 8's. One of things I openly admit (almost embarassingly) is that I would see a decent lay opportunity, but go for back opportunity instead, because I could make more money, because of the limited liability."If you trade £100 at 2's you will make £1 after greening. If you punt that stake and lose it that's 100 +ve trades down the pan."
No, I am afraid that isn't me."Could stevequal's be the bomber!?"
I don't think this guy is a trader. Just a heavy punter, playing with the exchange.That is exactly it. My biggest regret is that I may actually have had a winning strategy for the last six months, but I never implimented it it correctly to find out."Poor Prerace trades leads to frustration leads to worse leads to going In running it goes against and now we have a disaster, all been there I guess!!"
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psycho040253
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:29 pm
I'm glad that my comments were treated in the spirit that they were intended and that my cahunas are still in tact.
Moving on then ....
A couple of years ago, some research was conducted on gambling.
The research showed that when a bet doesn't succeed, it's not just the betting bank that is affected. So is our psychological well-being - to the tune of 2.5 bets (for the average person).
What this means is that, in order to redress our psychological well-being, for every lost bet, not only must we recover our losses, we must also win 2.5 bets. So, even if we recover our lost funds on the very next bet following a loss, our psychological well-being will only be restored if we win the next 1.5 bets as well.
The research also showed that it was the loss, rather than the amount lost, that affected the psychological well-being. For example, the psychological loss of losing £100 was found to be greater than that associated with losing only £1. But, it was nowhere near 100 times greater. It's the loss itself, rather than the amount lost, that does the majority of the psychological damage.
Psycho
Moving on then ....
A couple of years ago, some research was conducted on gambling.
The research showed that when a bet doesn't succeed, it's not just the betting bank that is affected. So is our psychological well-being - to the tune of 2.5 bets (for the average person).
What this means is that, in order to redress our psychological well-being, for every lost bet, not only must we recover our losses, we must also win 2.5 bets. So, even if we recover our lost funds on the very next bet following a loss, our psychological well-being will only be restored if we win the next 1.5 bets as well.
The research also showed that it was the loss, rather than the amount lost, that affected the psychological well-being. For example, the psychological loss of losing £100 was found to be greater than that associated with losing only £1. But, it was nowhere near 100 times greater. It's the loss itself, rather than the amount lost, that does the majority of the psychological damage.
Psycho