So how can that happen? If Betfair aren't placing money at the front of the queue to cover their Free Bets offer on Long Run then I'll eat my bloody hat!
I can't prove it but how can approx 64,000 be matched before my order is filled?
Betfair jumping the queue?
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JollyGreen
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
I placed a closing order of £5000 at 3.05 on Long Run and the amount traded at that time was 438,000. There was approx 18,000 in front of me. I sat and waited and waited and waited and waited and waited! The amount traded rose to 512,000 before I was matched
So how can that happen? If Betfair aren't placing money at the front of the queue to cover their Free Bets offer on Long Run then I'll eat my bloody hat!
I can't prove it but how can approx 64,000 be matched before my order is filled?
So how can that happen? If Betfair aren't placing money at the front of the queue to cover their Free Bets offer on Long Run then I'll eat my bloody hat!
I can't prove it but how can approx 64,000 be matched before my order is filled?
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JollyGreen
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
Oh don't worry guys after 10 years at this game I know the excuses they'll come up with. I think Mugsgame summed it up beautifully "making it up as we go along!"
Jim....I know they'll say XM but I would simply say........XM my arse, there is no way it was simply XM!
Rant over...move on!
Jim....I know they'll say XM but I would simply say........XM my arse, there is no way it was simply XM!
Rant over...move on!
Interesting. I was in that same queue JollyGreen and although I wasn't recording my exact place in it, I do remember thinking that it was taking much, much longer than I had anticipated to get a match.
I am sure Euler's research will be illuminating.
I am sure Euler's research will be illuminating.
If they are doing that, then it's clearly unethical.
If JG is waiting in the queue for Horse A, and someone comes along and places a massive bet on Horse B, they shouldn't be able to just shove in front of him, cross matching or not!
Jeff
If JG is waiting in the queue for Horse A, and someone comes along and places a massive bet on Horse B, they shouldn't be able to just shove in front of him, cross matching or not!
Jeff
jimrobo wrote:What they'll say is the counter bets that were cross matched were placed before your order so were matched before you. You have no way to prove otherwise!
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enzabella2009
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm
Hi Jeff,Ferru123 wrote:If they are doing that, then it's clearly unethical.
If JG is waiting in the queue for Horse A, and someone comes along and places a massive bet on Horse B, they shouldn't be able to just shove in front of him, cross matching or not!
Jeff
jimrobo wrote:What they'll say is the counter bets that were cross matched were placed before your order so were matched before you. You have no way to prove otherwise!
do you remember couple months ago I told you that happened to me on several football games? People starting to noticing is happening to them too. There must be something then.
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CaerMyrddin
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am
I was recently trading a footbal match and the opposite happened. There were around €60k in front of me and my lay bets were matched seconds after placing them and the €60k were still there. I double checked that I hadn't the prices given by the 'virtual price display' turned on. I managed to do this 12 times and as the book was going broke on the other side I was able to lay the other selections to get a profit. I didn't understand why or what was happening, but it was very strange.
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beepbeep20
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:05 pm
I've had similar 'jumping the queue' moments to CaerMyrddin. Only occasionally but on the UK pre-race markets.
I wondered if it was someone or somebot cancelling then re-inputting the same bets a split second later to deliberately put themselves at the back of the queue for spoofing purposes (I presume). So although not enough was being taken to eat through and get my bets matched I had been moved in front of some/most of the money at that tick. I normally trade in the middle of the book (3rd/4th/5th fav), I don't know if it happens on the 1st/2nd.
I'm not talking about the on/off flashing thing, although that would create the same result.
I wondered if it was someone or somebot cancelling then re-inputting the same bets a split second later to deliberately put themselves at the back of the queue for spoofing purposes (I presume). So although not enough was being taken to eat through and get my bets matched I had been moved in front of some/most of the money at that tick. I normally trade in the middle of the book (3rd/4th/5th fav), I don't know if it happens on the 1st/2nd.
I'm not talking about the on/off flashing thing, although that would create the same result.
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CaerMyrddin
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am
I thought this could be the case as well, but as this happened several times I had a chance to be looking at the money all the time. Also I double checked the WOM graphs and nothing there either. This is really hard to explain specially the fact that it should be really difficult getting filled at that price (I was expecting to get filled in a few hours tbh). It was a bit like printing money out of thin air what felt good, but if I was on the opposite side (being the guy or guys with the €60k) I wouldn't be very happy with not being filled like you weren't.I wondered if it was someone or somebot cancelling then re-inputting the same bets a split second later to deliberately put themselves at the back of the queue for spoofing purposes (I presume)
Maybe bf created a new kind of order (the always go to the end of the queue order) just for themselves?
I wrote a VBA program to run in excel that calculated exactly the flow of money. As you can imagine it was rubbish just before the start of a race but in the quieter build up it was very good. Every 250ms the information was fed into a file on my computer. This allowed me to see bets placed and then the reaction to those bets.
The point I am making in all of this is that regularily the reaction time was so fast that the only possible explanation I could think was that Betfair were directly trading their own markets, and I don't mean XM.
One example was a very quiet market where no bets or shifting of money had happened for ages, then a £10 (TEN) bet was placed, instantly about 5k was moved from one side of the market to the other causing the initial £10 bet to be in a full 1 point losing position. All the data was fed to me in the same 250ms reading.
It would take a non Betfair BOT about 1000-1500ms to react.
The only other explanation I could think of was that whoever placed the £10 bet also shifted the price against themselves by mistake but I prefer the theory that Betafir are scam artists and crooks.
The point I am making in all of this is that regularily the reaction time was so fast that the only possible explanation I could think was that Betfair were directly trading their own markets, and I don't mean XM.
One example was a very quiet market where no bets or shifting of money had happened for ages, then a £10 (TEN) bet was placed, instantly about 5k was moved from one side of the market to the other causing the initial £10 bet to be in a full 1 point losing position. All the data was fed to me in the same 250ms reading.
It would take a non Betfair BOT about 1000-1500ms to react.
The only other explanation I could think of was that whoever placed the £10 bet also shifted the price against themselves by mistake but I prefer the theory that Betafir are scam artists and crooks.
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superfrank
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm
when i started futures trading i tried to find out whether is was FIFO with regards to getting filled (because it felt like i was always at the back of the queue).
it transpired that it depends on the exchange and the product being traded as to what order matching algorithm is used (priority can be influenced by order size which obviously favours the big players). also, if an order is entered a one price and then moved it doesn't necessarily go to the back of the queue. so HFT bots exploit this by always having orders in the market and then just moving them around.
one comment i received was, "they allow you to play with the big boys, but by their rules!".
from personal experience i've found that the Eurex exchange feels much fairer than the US exchanges i've traded.
the order matching stuff with futures is not so important for most markets as the relative price increments are smaller, so a tick either way is not such a big deal - but it would make a massive difference to sports trading should BF change the FIFO policy.
it transpired that it depends on the exchange and the product being traded as to what order matching algorithm is used (priority can be influenced by order size which obviously favours the big players). also, if an order is entered a one price and then moved it doesn't necessarily go to the back of the queue. so HFT bots exploit this by always having orders in the market and then just moving them around.
one comment i received was, "they allow you to play with the big boys, but by their rules!".
from personal experience i've found that the Eurex exchange feels much fairer than the US exchanges i've traded.
the order matching stuff with futures is not so important for most markets as the relative price increments are smaller, so a tick either way is not such a big deal - but it would make a massive difference to sports trading should BF change the FIFO policy.
I think it's easy to get confused as to exactly what is going on sometimes and I think something that looks suspicious can often be explained. But there is no doubt Betfair's track record on changing fundamental things without warnings is not great.