Because Betfair went offline before I could close one of my trades earlier, I'm about 40 pounds down. I received the lovely email from Betfair below. Do you think they will be willing to reimburse me, given that it's their hardware that's caused me to be out of pocket?
Jeff
Dear Jeff
One or more of your bets, placed on the market has been voided/lapsed by Betfair. Whilst these bets were all placed in good faith, in order to be fair to all users we have had to void/lapse them.
Should you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact us by emailing [email protected] or calling our helpdesk on 0870 0110444 (+44 20 8834 8060 from outside the UK). You will find details of the voided bets in "My Account, Betting History".
Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience, and we hope you continue to use and enjoy the site.
Grrr!!!
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
You have no chance what so ever of being refunded I am afraid.
Take five before going back into the markets - you don't want to go on TILT.
Take five before going back into the markets - you don't want to go on TILT.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Pre race bets will stand - i.e. placed before the official off.
Bets placed after the official off will be voided if the site crashes and the market isn't put inplay as happened here.
A very good reason for this would be if say a criminal gang were to build a position on outcome A but it was looking like outcome B would happen - if bets were voided pre off they could just crash the site knowing they would get their money back.
Not 100% sure what happens if the site goes down mid race? As ever Betfair don't have any Standard Operating Procedures - so tend to make it up as they go along despite being a multi million pound organisation - how they get away with this is beyond me and I have argued with them on this point many times.
Why the outcome can depend upon what one individual decides in the heat of the battle is beyond me but is the way they operate quite often.
Bets placed after the official off will be voided if the site crashes and the market isn't put inplay as happened here.
A very good reason for this would be if say a criminal gang were to build a position on outcome A but it was looking like outcome B would happen - if bets were voided pre off they could just crash the site knowing they would get their money back.
Not 100% sure what happens if the site goes down mid race? As ever Betfair don't have any Standard Operating Procedures - so tend to make it up as they go along despite being a multi million pound organisation - how they get away with this is beyond me and I have argued with them on this point many times.
Why the outcome can depend upon what one individual decides in the heat of the battle is beyond me but is the way they operate quite often.
I do think Betfair need to clarify a few things.
When they had this inplay issue earlier in the year I got caught out in both directions. I raised this as an issue and they told me to cancel and / or close positions to be sure. Then suddenly they started voiding those as well claiming that the bets had been closed "too late". So each day I started syncronising my clock to the ATR / RUK clock to ensure I was spot on with my timing, I doubled check this with an atomic clock.
I also asked for clairity and they confirmed that if I turned bets to a take SP order then the SP would be resolved at the off even if the off was missed. This worked a treat on the next few issues, any orders near the off were taken to SP and they resolved them.
Then on the last occasion I got caught the following happened.
My bet was placed before the post time, well before the actual off. The bet was turned to an SP bet for safety.
Betfair failed to turn in-play and failed to resolve my SP bet. They claimed at first that this was because my bet was too late, but of course I had evidence of the time as proofed by my Betfair account history and various other bits. So they threw the same T&C's at me but indicated that they now were evidence that SP bets will not be resolved because the market was not turned inplay?!?!?!
Basically it appearsa they interpret the rules how they wish and that interpretation seems to change each time. All we want is some clarity and consistancy.
When they had this inplay issue earlier in the year I got caught out in both directions. I raised this as an issue and they told me to cancel and / or close positions to be sure. Then suddenly they started voiding those as well claiming that the bets had been closed "too late". So each day I started syncronising my clock to the ATR / RUK clock to ensure I was spot on with my timing, I doubled check this with an atomic clock.
I also asked for clairity and they confirmed that if I turned bets to a take SP order then the SP would be resolved at the off even if the off was missed. This worked a treat on the next few issues, any orders near the off were taken to SP and they resolved them.
Then on the last occasion I got caught the following happened.
My bet was placed before the post time, well before the actual off. The bet was turned to an SP bet for safety.
Betfair failed to turn in-play and failed to resolve my SP bet. They claimed at first that this was because my bet was too late, but of course I had evidence of the time as proofed by my Betfair account history and various other bits. So they threw the same T&C's at me but indicated that they now were evidence that SP bets will not be resolved because the market was not turned inplay?!?!?!
Basically it appearsa they interpret the rules how they wish and that interpretation seems to change each time. All we want is some clarity and consistancy.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Fully agree - they should have a set of standard operating procedures and they should be published.
I argued this with them at some length and the conclusion was that they would deal with it on a case by case situation which I said was completely wrong.
On a different note how would this bet be dealt with?
Horse B is trading at 5.1 with a Fav that has a Reduction Factor of 25%
Place £100 lay bet at 5.0 on Horse B before the off and switch it to a keep bet.
The bet isn't matched before the off but the Fav is withdrawn at the last moment and therefore not removed from the market.
The race starts and the market goes inplay.
What happens to our bet?
~ Is it not submitted?
~ Submitted at 5.0?
~ Submitted at 3.75 (i.e. taken account of the reduction factor)?
Isn't the last option I am pretty sure but not sure about the other two?
I argued this with them at some length and the conclusion was that they would deal with it on a case by case situation which I said was completely wrong.
On a different note how would this bet be dealt with?
Horse B is trading at 5.1 with a Fav that has a Reduction Factor of 25%
Place £100 lay bet at 5.0 on Horse B before the off and switch it to a keep bet.
The bet isn't matched before the off but the Fav is withdrawn at the last moment and therefore not removed from the market.
The race starts and the market goes inplay.
What happens to our bet?
~ Is it not submitted?
~ Submitted at 5.0?
~ Submitted at 3.75 (i.e. taken account of the reduction factor)?
Isn't the last option I am pretty sure but not sure about the other two?
I'm pretty sure this has happened to me in the past twice in fact!
The bet is submitted at 5 and then after the market is suspended the bets before the off are manually adjusted the bets inplay are not.
I have benefitted from this before. I thought I had a losing position but because of the reduction factor I had redded up what I thought was my net position but actually had skewed my book completely by accident after the pre race bets had been applied with the reduction factor.
The bet is submitted at 5 and then after the market is suspended the bets before the off are manually adjusted the bets inplay are not.
I have benefitted from this before. I thought I had a losing position but because of the reduction factor I had redded up what I thought was my net position but actually had skewed my book completely by accident after the pre race bets had been applied with the reduction factor.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
So the keep bet is submitted at 5.0 and matched at 5.0 and obviously not adjusted as it was matched inplay.
Hardly fair!?!?
Hardly fair!?!?
sorry I misread your initial post! I've just realised hat wasn't what happened to me at all!
After thinking about it I have no idea whether your initial keep bet would be subject to a reduction factor or not! I would say that at the point of suspension your bet is resubmitted by betfair at 5 in play and after the withdrawal and so would not be subject to a reduction factor altough it might be worth an email to betfair for clarification.
After thinking about it I have no idea whether your initial keep bet would be subject to a reduction factor or not! I would say that at the point of suspension your bet is resubmitted by betfair at 5 in play and after the withdrawal and so would not be subject to a reduction factor altough it might be worth an email to betfair for clarification.
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JollyGreen
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
It depends on what you call the official off time! I had a problem with this on a race at Market Rasen and I had clear proof that ALL my orders and position were closed before the off time! I still lost money because when the bean counters did their thing some of my orders were voided!!andyfuller wrote:Pre race bets will stand - i.e. placed before the official off.
Bets placed after the official off will be voided if the site crashes and the market isn't put inplay as happened here.
I had all orders time stamped etc etc and they simply told me their "off" time differed from mine when I had the official time!
I think the expression "Pissing in the wind!" springs to mind!!
When this happens, I always expect the worst....then it can only get better......blue moon etc etc!!
It looks like I've been a bit harsh on our friends at Betfair! LOL!
Perhaps the New Year festivities have already started at the Betfair offices, as I've just received this email offering to refund the majority of the money I lost:
Dear Jeff
Thank you for your e-mail.
I am willing to offer a £25 goodwill offer as being a longstanding customer but that is goodwill and as previously stated all bets placed after the off time have to be voided in line with our terms and conditions.
Please confirm by return if you want to accept.
Perhaps the New Year festivities have already started at the Betfair offices, as I've just received this email offering to refund the majority of the money I lost:
Dear Jeff
Thank you for your e-mail.
I am willing to offer a £25 goodwill offer as being a longstanding customer but that is goodwill and as previously stated all bets placed after the off time have to be voided in line with our terms and conditions.
Please confirm by return if you want to accept.
