Hello,
I have been gambling for many years and "trading" using the Bet Angel software for around 1 year now and initially lost a few grand thinking " this is easy money ". Of course i quickly realised that was not the case but was determined to find a a way to make it work and through much trial and error , long hours thinking and observing i think i have found a way to make it work ( mainly on the pre race horses ) and have now been profitable for 3 months.
I am able to identify a strategy , test it and implement it but my biggest problem is control of my emotions. I have to constantly fight my gambling instincts and apply the required discipline to make it work. If i experience short term drawdown i lose self control and have to fight myself not to lay a horse to get the money back and when i look at my P&L i can see the moments when i broke down and just had a " gamble " to try and recover funds that i know i can recover anyway as long as i apply the correct discipline and control my emotions.
I hope i have not bored anyone that reads this to tears but i would be very grateful for any advice on how to manage this very important part of the trading process. Any guidance towards any reading material from any professional traders would be very much appreciated as i am keen to develop this side of my trading skills.
Self Development Advice
Thenuts, I suffer with the exact same problem. I think the majority of gamblers do too in truth.
I have tried to remove the emotion from my activities, by using the automation tool as much as possible.
This needs a lot of work setting up, and ironing out little anomalies that occur over periods of time, and requires constant tweaking, but for me it has helped an enourmous amount.
I now have 2 other bots as well as the fantastic bet angel, and in all honesty the fully automated ones are the ones where I make money, as soon as decision making on the hoof comes into play, especially when Im not having a good day, it all goes very Pete Tong.
I hope this helps, and that you get other responses and ideas, because I would like to hear them just as much as yourself.
I have tried to remove the emotion from my activities, by using the automation tool as much as possible.
This needs a lot of work setting up, and ironing out little anomalies that occur over periods of time, and requires constant tweaking, but for me it has helped an enourmous amount.
I now have 2 other bots as well as the fantastic bet angel, and in all honesty the fully automated ones are the ones where I make money, as soon as decision making on the hoof comes into play, especially when Im not having a good day, it all goes very Pete Tong.
I hope this helps, and that you get other responses and ideas, because I would like to hear them just as much as yourself.
Setting up two accounts can help, you can apportion one to gambling and one to trading. You should never forget not to mix trading and gambling.
When gambling you return a multiple of your initial stake, when trading a (some times) small percentage of it. So if you let a trade turn into a gamble it can be almost impossible to win it back. That forces you into chasing losses and we all know where that ends up!
Automating aspects of trading can really help as your hand is forced. So, for example, if you automated the exit of a trade (at post time maybe). Then you won't be allowed to fudge your exit. It's there in black and white.
When gambling you return a multiple of your initial stake, when trading a (some times) small percentage of it. So if you let a trade turn into a gamble it can be almost impossible to win it back. That forces you into chasing losses and we all know where that ends up!
Automating aspects of trading can really help as your hand is forced. So, for example, if you automated the exit of a trade (at post time maybe). Then you won't be allowed to fudge your exit. It's there in black and white.
I have not tackled automation yet as the vast majority of what I have been doing is pre race trading from 7 mins out till the off. I tried swing trading and scalping but have discovered that it appears my skills are more suited to scalping and there seems to me like there are two very different skill sets required for both. It's easier for me to scratch or take a one tick loss if it goes wrong as my emotions and discipline are able to deal with this and I struggle to close a losing position if I'm trying to swing trade. This seems to have worked for 90 days now so I'm going to keep going. I also now get the fact that with trading you trade a large bank for a small percentage profit. I am now at the stage where I trade with around a £2000 liability in a race and try and realise around £60 per day profit so around a 3% increase in my bank per day. It seems to be working but still if a price jumps by 3 ticks unexpectedly I find it hard to click the close button hoping it will come back and sometimes I get stung for 8 ticks when it should be 3. This is where I need the help on the discipline part. Thanks for the advice on automation - ill look into it more deeply. Peter - looking on amazon I saw your book from a few years ago but no publication - I assume its not happening ? But can you recommend any other good reading material ?
1) Dont look at your P.N.L till the month ends traet it as gone but it will lookafter itself as long as you stick to your planTHENUTS wrote:Hello,
I have been gambling for many years and "trading" using the Bet Angel software for around 1 year now and initially lost a few grand thinking " this is easy money ". Of course i quickly realised that was not the case but was determined to find a a way to make it work and through much trial and error , long hours thinking and observing i think i have found a way to make it work ( mainly on the pre race horses ) and have now been profitable for 3 months.
I am able to identify a strategy , test it and implement it but my biggest problem is control of my emotions. I have to constantly fight my gambling instincts and apply the required discipline to make it work. If i experience short term drawdown i lose self control and have to fight myself not to lay a horse to get the money back and when i look at my P&L i can see the moments when i broke down and just had a " gamble " to try and recover funds that i know i can recover anyway as long as i apply the correct discipline and control my emotions.
I hope i have not bored anyone that reads this to tears but i would be very grateful for any advice on how to manage this very important part of the trading process. Any guidance towards any reading material from any professional traders would be very much appreciated as i am keen to develop this side of my trading skills.
2) Learn to love loss took me a while to grasp this,as long as it is the loss within your plan, i trade a 1-2 ratio system so i love the losses more as they dont hurt me i can get 5 trades go against me in a row and still be profitable at the end of the session
3) Forget all gambleing tactics, the only time we traders gamble is when we open up our positions. Its how you control that position once your in it that seperates a gambler from a trader.
4) Dont chase losses the next trade round the corner may double it
Good Luck
-
steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
Dont over stake with what your not comfortable with if 3 ticks goes against you. Play with a liability a third the size and put through 3 times more trades if possible or whatever makes you feel comfortable. You may find that the market feels more aggressive against larger stakes that you enter in my opinion, which can cause a larger out of proportion move out of the blue.
Alpha322 & steven1976,
Much appreciated comments. I picked up a couple of things that will be a big help to me. From Alpha - "learn to love losses". A very interesting point which i think i get. If you know your strategy works then losses are just part and parcel of the process. I'm hoping that the longer i remain profitable the more confidence i will have in this thought process and the easier it will be to accept losses without " tilting ". This has been added to my list on the wall to focus on.
From steven1976 - " Dont over stake with what your not comfortable with if 3 ticks goes against you " . Didn't really register before but because i " budget " for accepting a 1 tick move against me before closing if a sudden 3 tick move takes place it really hurts and i struggle to close. So i'll definitely be taking your advice of reducing liability so that 3 ticks doesn't hurt and makes it easier to manage and perhaps i will place a few more trades into the market to try and maintain the profitability i'm looking for. 90% of my trades are lay bets anyway so when i said £2000 liability i never place this as a back bet , its almost always something like £250 lay at 7 or 8 or something like that and only when there is high liquidity close to the off so i don't think my bet placement influences the market but another very interesting point.
I know you are very busy and don't have to bother so much appreciated comments.
Much appreciated comments. I picked up a couple of things that will be a big help to me. From Alpha - "learn to love losses". A very interesting point which i think i get. If you know your strategy works then losses are just part and parcel of the process. I'm hoping that the longer i remain profitable the more confidence i will have in this thought process and the easier it will be to accept losses without " tilting ". This has been added to my list on the wall to focus on.
From steven1976 - " Dont over stake with what your not comfortable with if 3 ticks goes against you " . Didn't really register before but because i " budget " for accepting a 1 tick move against me before closing if a sudden 3 tick move takes place it really hurts and i struggle to close. So i'll definitely be taking your advice of reducing liability so that 3 ticks doesn't hurt and makes it easier to manage and perhaps i will place a few more trades into the market to try and maintain the profitability i'm looking for. 90% of my trades are lay bets anyway so when i said £2000 liability i never place this as a back bet , its almost always something like £250 lay at 7 or 8 or something like that and only when there is high liquidity close to the off so i don't think my bet placement influences the market but another very interesting point.
I know you are very busy and don't have to bother so much appreciated comments.
Think everyone has to understand themselves and how they react to things before anything else,
Alpha mentioned he has learned to love losses and fair enough if it works for him .
But Personally I don't get that at all, after 10 years trading i still hate them
, im a bit of a perfectionist and beat myself up massively for my mistakes. Im not really one of these people that blames the markets, they simply are what they are on a given day.
Im pretty much like Gordon Ramsay on acid when im in my office trading except the swearing and abuse is only directed at myself .
you don't imo need to control emotions like a robot to be a successful trader, it just not possible,
but you can harness them and use to your advantage.
Alpha mentioned he has learned to love losses and fair enough if it works for him
.But Personally I don't get that at all, after 10 years trading i still hate them
, im a bit of a perfectionist and beat myself up massively for my mistakes. Im not really one of these people that blames the markets, they simply are what they are on a given day.Im pretty much like Gordon Ramsay on acid when im in my office trading except the swearing and abuse is only directed at myself
.you don't imo need to control emotions like a robot to be a successful trader, it just not possible,
but you can harness them and use to your advantage.
thanks gutami for the link to the other thread - i will read with interest later and thanks Freddy - it seems i am you and act in the same emotional way with a losing trade !
What i want to know ( and it seems to be a trait of very successful sportpeople - golf for example , play the next hole after a double bogey as if it never happened ) is if you have 2/3 losing trades how do you do the next trade as if the last 3 never happened. Do you just train yourself over time or are there other ways to train your mind to act in this way ?
What i want to know ( and it seems to be a trait of very successful sportpeople - golf for example , play the next hole after a double bogey as if it never happened ) is if you have 2/3 losing trades how do you do the next trade as if the last 3 never happened. Do you just train yourself over time or are there other ways to train your mind to act in this way ?
Just to be clear i don't like having losing trades and it does makes me swear abit sometimes ,
but i don't lose my head in a trading sense, if get it wrong i soon get it out of my system and then focus on the next trade and use it for motivation,
i never chase or gamble so i am very disciplined if a little hot headed at times .
the two things are not not necessarily exclusive
,but i don't lose my head in a trading sense, if get it wrong i soon get it out of my system and then focus on the next trade and use it for motivation,
i never chase or gamble so i am very disciplined if a little hot headed at times .
the two things are not not necessarily exclusive
freddy wrote:Think everyone has to understand themselves and how they react to things before anything else,
Alpha mentioned he has learned to love losses and fair enough if it works for him
I suppose what i mean is i dont like them but in my early days of trading when i got them they emotionaly set me off especially at the end of the month when the bankroll was down but the strategy i use now in my development along the way i can take 5 of them in a row and still profit or 10 of them and break even providing i have done more than 10 trades so they dont bother me as they did before. Good money management puts them at bay
.
Controlling your emotions by reading books is not going to happen, I'm affraid. To really control your emotions the best way is learn from your mistakes and set backs and initially you may be loosing but if you can survive that then you should be able to build on it. You will need certain doses of losses to change your mindset but reading books will not help you control your emotion.Peter - looking on amazon I saw your book from a few years ago but no publication - I assume its not happening ? But can you recommend any other good reading material ?
