The Integrity Team

[gazuty]

Its the annonimity of the internet, that alows us all to feel its acceptable.
If I were sat next to you in a pub watching a football match with my mates and I knew the game was being watched with a 30sec delay, but you didnt, and I could see or hear the up to the minute action via a headset or something, and those around me are saying I bet they score from this corner or from this attack etc, I will bet you a straight tenner, but i only took your bets when i knew you had already lost. Then after the game when im £100 up I tell you how Ive done it but wont give you your money back, how many mates do you think I will have tomorrow, how many of them will feel cheated?????

All around the world, in all markets, all day, since the dawn of human history the greatest trade of all has been that of information advantage.

Your example above is information advantage pure and simple (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Mayer_Rothschild)

There is no level playing field. Life is not a level playing field. Small advantages (or large advantages) will exist and when they do, someone will endeavor to exploit them.

One of my favourite films of all time, The Sting, is another great example.

[goran2k1]

I agree that timely data has always been an advantage in any form of trading. I think that a key point, which has been referenced previously in this thread, is the fact that it's public knowledge that some traders will have access to information before those using slower data feeds (i.e. those watching on TV). Betfair even have notices on the site alerting users to time delays with prices and 'live' video. I don't think this is a case of 'cheating' as these facts are stated explicitly.

[haichless]

I can see why betfairs in play liquidity is going down, and why they are getting concerned about it, looking at the number of people supporting the practice of unfair advantage. I expected about 50/50 on here given bet angel is undoubtedly one the major places to find the perpetrators of such practices.

I repeat If you value the integrity of the platform, please contact the betfair integrity team on this issue.
They can only shine a light on the issue and the serial offenders, if we tell them where to point the torch.

[Iron]

I'm sorry, but integrity doesn't come into the matter.

What next? Asking people not to spoof in case they fool newbies?

As far as I am concerned, you're a consenting adult when you enter the market, and you pays your money and you takes your chance... As long as the game you're betting on hasn't been fixed, you've no legitimate complaint if you lose money.

Jeff

[haichless]

The team looking into this at betfair,is the integrity team.
Which does indicate what they think of the issue, which is quite revealing.

I hope they will be switching on their torches a little more in the future, I certainly am causing them to buy new batteries myself.

Good luck all

[freddy]

Nobody makes a profit on Betfair unless they have a edge of some sort.
So for me it a slippery slope,
where do you draw the line ?.

Do my cat like reactions excel automation and my knowledge of the markets give me a unfair advantage over others ? .

[haichless]

i agree freddy, slippery slope indeed, tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
Today I went and saw a mate of mine, who works in Ladbrokes which considering what he said and that they are in talks with betdaq is quite amusing.
I told him the story of my most recent view of unfair advantage in the blackpool cardiff draw market, and he just smiled.
Then he said this , not word fort word as i cant remember all of it, but basically this.We know all about it, its good for us because people get fed up and come back to us to bet, and why not. Basically these guys are acting like ladbrokes does as bookmakers when they are laying and by only acccepting the offers when the bets lost, by slight of hand, is the equivalent of punters coming in here to bet on the draw in play or whenever and me saying just sit over their till I call you to the counter and tell you when i will accept your bet, then when a goal goes in i call them and accept the bet. If we did that in here, their would be riots in the shops.
Ladbrokes might not always honour all bets and wriggle out of obligations occasionally with smallprint, but we dont cheat customers as blatantly as that, god bless these guys and betfair for not sorting it out, they help keep me in a job.

[freddy]

Personally I find a lot of people to be a bit hypocritical with this issue.

Most people wouldn’t hesitate to use some breaking team news they have just heard to make a profitable trade on a football match.

But this isn’t strictly fair, there are people who don’t have access to this info
maybe they can’t afford a sports channels or are at work all day, whatever the reason, they are clearly betting at a disadvantage and are often taken to the cleaners by people who have a speed of information advantage.

This cannot be stopped and if it could be no one would make any money .
I mean Lets not pretend here we all do it in some way or another.

[haichless]

Freddy, if I have info 45mins before the K.O that Rooney and Van Persie are not playing for man utd.
yes its an advantage, but it gives others 45 mins to find out, it doesnt neccasarily mean that man utd will win, and many others will know that info,thats a very different thing to a layer taking bet offers he knows have lost 9 secs before an 8 sec suspend on betfair.
If you cannot see the difference, i would say that was hypercritical.
A Reminder Its the Integrity team at betfair, please contact them when you have been diddled in this way. They are expecting your call.

[freddy]

I was actually talking about trading the odds pre match and you certainly don’t have 45mins to react, the price moves instantly as soon as the first people with Betfair accounts find out, the rest are left taking big losses.

Maybe we should add a big delay to pre race/match trading too ?
Hopefully you can see that’s just not the answer.

It’s exactly the same thing though, a speed advantage over others has been used .

My point was is it a slippery slope,
All traders make money from information that they have and others don’t.

[haichless]

as long as you are happy with it freddy.
it does beg the question if my example is the same as yours, why mine would and is referred to the integrity team at betfair and yours wouldnt be.

[freddy]

It's just a customer service thing, you've asked them a question they carn't answer and they have referred it to there Integrity Team nothing unusual really,
They will probably do nothing unless they find evidence that the game was fixed or the customer was cheating in some way.

They only have two choices really anyway

1. Ban all customers with a speed advantage,
Which is ultimately impossible as it will only give the advantage to the next fastest and then the next and the next until eventually everyone was banned .

Or 2. keep increasing the In-play delay which eventually stops the hovering, but kills the liquidity at the same time.
and even then still the people who have the fastest connection time have an advantage as they are first in the que after a suspension.

[haichless]

thats an answer, i guess, but why would my example be referred to the integrity team (and now 9 have), and yours not.
the clue is in the team its referred too

even your lets say impartial answer suggests one might involve cheating (which needs investigation) and the other not.
so how are they the same,and why is one referred and the other not.

[freddy]

As I have said a million times someone will always have a speed advantage over others. That’s just a fact of life.

I live in the countryside btw and have a 2mb internet connection so I carn’t do in-play or I would clearly be at a huge disadvantage.
So if you were hinting that I was one of these fastest finger people then you would be very wrong,
i actually prob have one of the slowest broadband packages in the country .


Lots of people share your views on this matter i know and im sure complaints have been made every day since the invention of Betfair and In-play, but nothing ever changes simply because there is no solution to the problem.

The only thing I would call cheating for the record is either fixing a match or
finding some glitch within Betfair that allowed you to circumvent the bet placement delay.

Now That’s clearly cheating.

but calling people cheats because Betfair have suspended late is ridiculous, they have done nothing legally wrong at all and it possible that you could even do it by accident.

Having a faster internet connection and / or faster pictures is not a crime or cheating as far as im aware.

[Iron]

As I have said a million times someone will always have a speed advantage over others. That’s just a fact of life.

Quite.

You either play the game knowing that other players may have more knowledge and skill than you, or you choose not to bet. No-one is forcing anyone to bet.

I find that when people talk about fairness, it's generally because they want to be awarded a bigger slice of the pie.

Trading is dog eat dog, and let's not forget it. I doubt Haichless would give up his edge in the name of 'fairness', so why expect others to give up theirs?

Jeff