scalp v swing

The sport of kings.
Iron
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

JollyGreen wrote:Can you determine which market? Well I would be in the YES camp. Can you scalp every market? NO!
Hi Dave

Could you program a computer to determine which markets are suitable for scalping? If not, then there is an element of subjectivity. Providing you can be confident that your judgement will be as good tomorrow as it was today and yesterday, that's not an issue. However, unless you can define mathematically the criteria under which you would scalp the market, it makes it hard for others to replicate your methods or to test them. That's not a criticism - it may be that what you do cannot be reduced to a formula - just an observation. :)

Jeff
switesh
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Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:43 am

To throw some light on the original question of swing v scalp I thought I'd share these articles from Peter's blog which are quite informative to answering this dilemma.

I've picked out the articles that best highlight the market characteristics and tendencies of swing markets:
http://www.betangel.com/blog_wp/tag/swing-trade/
http://www.betangel.com/blog_wp/?s=day+of+the+drifter

Yesterday after I finished trading for the day I was sitting and reading some old posts and the one titled 'Day of the drifter' caught my eye. In the article Peter mentions about a predominant feature in that Monday’s horse racing market where things were just drifting a lot that day and that you could have picked up on this pattern and avoided scalping.

I also want to share a few thoughts on some of the things James1st mentioned earlier:
James1st wrote:
Specifically with scalping, you can never rely on a stable market remaining stable enough for long enough to allow you to make a decent profit and even in those races that do stay stable for considerable periods (eg long odds on shots) you will not get much money through the market due to the very large volumes at each price point.
Absolutely right James. I can relate this point with a recent Chester meeting over a 3 day period last week. 2 of those days were stable enough while 1 of those days was very different and if you relied on the market to remain stable for long you were bound to get hurt as I realized first-hand.
James1st wrote:
...in EVERY race the market moved between 5 and 10 ticks (a few 20's) which demonstrates that "static" races like your example is indeed a unique event.
James has it right again, and i have little to add, but in a few days time I will post an image to visually illustrate this. I have only a small sample of data so it may not be perfectly accurate but i think it is decent enough in highlighting a general market movement tendency.
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Euler
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A market doesn't have to be rock solid to scalp it. So it's wrong to think that because a market moves up or down 5-10 ticks that you can't scalp it, it's a skill thing.

I scalp or swing depending on what I think the ROI will be, but can indentify the likely charateristics of a market many hours in advance so will turn up to a market, confirm its doing what I expect then start trading.
redtra
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:27 pm

Hi Euler

I've just had a look at your blog "being contrary" showing the steamer. It's really informative but leaves me with a couple of questions...if you had taken a screen shot a couple of minutes later, would it have shown the graph going sharply upwards?

It also has a huge amount of money behind it, 293 out of 284 so at the point it bounces upwards, does this weight of money not count anymore. In other words, is the new weight of money from the point of rebound. Don't know if this question is very clear but I am trying to find out if wom sort of resets to zero after a change in direction...thanks
switesh
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Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:43 am

Here's a visual representation of the Average Tick & Range movement that I was talking about earlier. Please note that I created this from a small sample size so I stress that this is the Average.

The actual movement will vary depending on race type, field size, price construction, Season (summer or winter), weekday, and course.

Seasoned traders please correct me if the graph seems incorrect.
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PeterLe
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Ferru123 wrote:
JollyGreen wrote:Can you determine which market? Well I would be in the YES camp. Can you scalp every market? NO!
Hi Dave

Could you program a computer to determine which markets are suitable for scalping? If not, then there is an element of subjectivity. Providing you can be confident that your judgement will be as good tomorrow as it was today and yesterday, that's not an issue. However, unless you can define mathematically the criteria under which you would scalp the market, it makes it hard for others to replicate your methods or to test them. That's not a criticism - it may be that what you do cannot be reduced to a formula - just an observation. :)

Jeff
Jeff
I think you could develop a computer to select swing markets as largely they are a function of odds/grade

I chose a race this evening that I thought would be a scalp market (not perfect as it was a lower grade than I would have liked). I then ran a simple bot on it to scalp..here's how I got on:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjuQESZ-K-0

Using a 4.40 stake initially it produced a green of £1.56 so about a 36% ROI on the 4.40 stake. It turned over £500
I was tempted to jump in and correct at some stages but decided to let it run..

Regards
Peter
Zenyatta
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:17 pm

I gave up hope of winning anything at short-term trading. Far too tough for me.

I just was never able to come up with a reliable way of determining whether a price shift was a genuine move or just a temporary spike. I notice that whenever I (or anyone else) put any significant amount of money on, the market often immediately pushes against it by reflex, rendering any stop-loss useless.

Needless to say, the constant price spikes and bandwagon effects (bots chasing, panics where everyone tries to get out etc.), makes short-term trading difficult; it renders any automated stop-loss worse than useless a lot of the time, and even when you're trying to manage the position manually, it is hard to determine if a big price shift is a genuine move or just a temporary spike.

I tried to follow the maxim 'cut your losses, let your profits run' many many times, but it never worked for me for the reasons I've given above; that's why I gave up.
Iron
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Zenyatta -

Maybe the mistake you were making was to try to predict the market rather than just respond to it. With sound staking, it's hard to lose much money in the markets, and you only need to be right often enough to pay for the times that you're wrong...

Jeff
switesh
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:43 am

PeterLe wrote:I was tempted to jump in and correct at some stages but decided to let it run..
Regards
Peter
Hi PeterLe,
Thanks for sharing info on your bot. Just watched your video. Good stuff! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're doing is making a market when the money is slight thin in the center compared to 1 or 2 ticks out.

I tried a similar experiment once and running up too much liabilities on one side worried me quite a lot, so to counter that I began implementing scratch trades and also taking smaller loses when the situation arose.

Here's a screenshot from my scalping bot spreadsheet.
I toyed with this a few months back, but at the moment I'm devoted to manual trading so I've put this on the back bench. I'll revise it when the winter racing kicks in this year.

On a side note: Very delighted to see some experienced traders like yourself PerterLe, and Mugs come out and share stuff with other traders. Encourages me to do the same. Thank you both! Hope to learn from all of you.
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redtra
Posts: 189
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Ferru123 wrote:Zenyatta -

Maybe the mistake you were making was to try to predict the market rather than just respond to it. With sound staking, it's hard to lose much money in the markets, and you only need to be right often enough to pay for the times that you're wrong...

Jeff
Hi Ferru123
Don't know if I am making a mistake here with my foray into trading but I was under the impression that it was good to try and predict the market rather than respond to it? That is what I am trying to do anyway...do you think there is another way?
PeterLe
Posts: 3727
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:19 pm

switesh wrote:
PeterLe wrote:I was tempted to jump in and correct at some stages but decided to let it run..
Regards
Peter
Hi PeterLe,
Thanks for sharing info on your bot. Just watched your video. Good stuff! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're doing is making a market when the money is slight thin in the center compared to 1 or 2 ticks out.
Hi Switesh
Its looking at the WOM across all selections rather than one ie Horse 1 V the rest. I do use this form race to race but not every race.
In fact, I simplified the equation for this video. In reality I use much much bigger stakes and it fires less often and of course I manually intervene.
I like the look of your spreadsheet. Just remember that no matter how refined it gets, you will never have "a one size fits all". Just pick and choose which races you use it on, you dont need to trade every race - be selective
regards
Peter
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LeTiss
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You have a lovely bot there Peter (how dodgy does that sound!!)

That must have taken hours of analysis & tweaking to get there
PeterLe
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LeTiss 4pm wrote:You have a lovely bot there Peter (how dodgy does that sound!!)

That must have taken hours of analysis & tweaking to get there
ha ha!! The missus would laugh at that! :D

Still WIP n progress to be honest
I'll tell you what though...if you had ten traders all running the same bot with 50 stakes..that would be interesting to watch..
I expect that what some of the large operators like Betting Promotions do on a daily basis..but tweaked to react to the likes of you and me..
Iron
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

You can have a 10% strike rate and make money and a 90% strike rate and lose money, depending on your average win and your average loss.

People want to be right, which is why most money in a horse race is on the favourite. Being right most of the time isn't the only way to long-term profits, however.

Jeff
redtra wrote: Hi Ferru123
Don't know if I am making a mistake here with my foray into trading but I was under the impression that it was good to try and predict the market rather than respond to it? That is what I am trying to do anyway...do you think there is another way?
redtra
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:27 pm

[quote="Ferru123"]You can have a 10% strike rate and make money and a 90% strike rate and lose money, depending on your average win and your average loss.

People want to be right, which is why most money in a horse race is on the favourite. Being right most of the time isn't the only way to long-term profits, however.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, that makes sense and makes me realise I don't need loads of trades as long as those that are successful result in an overall profit.

ps these posts are really good and are helping me learn without wasting too much dosh!
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