Ive got to ask if anyone else sees the perfect amounts matched at the front of the book?
Ive just been trading a horse 9 mins out and every time im in a good position and slipped my 7 quid to the the front of the book, a perfect amount comes in to clear out my money and the entire front position. Im not talking 10, 20, 25 quids etc... Im talking random 1388, 64, 107 577, 528 etc.. For those that dont see it, its easiest to spot in weak markets or in play.
On betdaq at least we all stand on a level pegging for these horses as we can all do this same trick if we have a big enough bank. However on BF we can not all do this through one account and therefore it can create opinion.
Every trick in the book that you can read from the financials is applied. Do a google for "market maker manipulation" and you will see it.
For the record, yes im frustrated with it. It doesn't mean its not easy to trade against. Im just fed up of it.
Make it a level playing field please BF. Your market makers do bring something to the table but they should play by the same rules.
Last week I posted some vids of ausy racing showing someone putting 9K against me on a market that had 14K matched and that 9K got matched without a flick of an eye lid. The market didnt move anywhere, it just returned to about 40 quid on both sides of the book.
Rant over, but i hope it helps a few.
Perfect amounts
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
rant not quite over!
I just made 3 quid in about 20 seconds by getting stuck into "another ambition" (horse) just knowing it was market makers who had matched all that money up in them charts you can see now. Still 2 mins to the off. Its crap, they are the ones killing the liquidity.
I just made 3 quid in about 20 seconds by getting stuck into "another ambition" (horse) just knowing it was market makers who had matched all that money up in them charts you can see now. Still 2 mins to the off. Its crap, they are the ones killing the liquidity.
Hi Steven,
I can see what you've written about very clearly ... as you said, yes - you can trade against it, but it's so frustrating at times, that I do not see the point of trading these ... you can make few quids many times in a row, and then bang, come back flat. Looks like a waste of time getting involved with that ;/
I can see what you've written about very clearly ... as you said, yes - you can trade against it, but it's so frustrating at times, that I do not see the point of trading these ... you can make few quids many times in a row, and then bang, come back flat. Looks like a waste of time getting involved with that ;/
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
I dont know 3 horses names. So i have to just trade the numbers. I play with small amounts because of the manipulation because i know they are playing with 000,000s if required. If you know horses and can identify a good horse for a good position fine and get on a swing.
If i get involved with a race, Im probably 1 of 2 people most actively involved on any particular race. By that, i dont mean that i put the most money through a market, but i would imagine there are not many people put more trades through the market. Why do i do this? Because price doesnt matter. People talk about looking for value, but in very short terms, what is the difference between 2.9 and 3.4? So for short term trading it doesnt matter because if you can identify real money at 3.4, you move away from it and take on the little guy.
Bigger traders complain they cant get orders matched (which means the market doesnt want to take them on at a particular point) and smaller traders always say it goes against them. Go figure.
Yes, there is always money to be made, but i just want betfair to stamp down on this because I want to be able to trade on a level playing field. In the past i didnt believe it was bf but i am slightly swaying towards them doing it for certain reasons but im still not sure. Lets see what responses the season pros say about the amounts matched first
If i get involved with a race, Im probably 1 of 2 people most actively involved on any particular race. By that, i dont mean that i put the most money through a market, but i would imagine there are not many people put more trades through the market. Why do i do this? Because price doesnt matter. People talk about looking for value, but in very short terms, what is the difference between 2.9 and 3.4? So for short term trading it doesnt matter because if you can identify real money at 3.4, you move away from it and take on the little guy.
Bigger traders complain they cant get orders matched (which means the market doesnt want to take them on at a particular point) and smaller traders always say it goes against them. Go figure.
Yes, there is always money to be made, but i just want betfair to stamp down on this because I want to be able to trade on a level playing field. In the past i didnt believe it was bf but i am slightly swaying towards them doing it for certain reasons but im still not sure. Lets see what responses the season pros say about the amounts matched first
Once again "The Elephant in the Room" I do not know what causes this but I do know that evenually traders and other users will migrate to other sites meaning less liquidity.
I have no idea how to stop this but other forum members viewpoints would be welcome.
I have no idea how to stop this but other forum members viewpoints would be welcome.
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
LOS, i believe it happens on all races all the time on all runners. Money is money at the end of the day. Market makers dont care.
If someone wants to back a horse at 4.3 for 50 quid on an irish 3m race with 1 min to go they will happily take your 50 quid and try and sell it at 4.4,4.5. If nothing else arrives at the market they will hold it there. If you add a further 50 quid, you may be lucky and they may take it to 4.6, 4.7 offering you even more value! Whilst doing so stacking up 000s behind the positions whilst making it weak on the back side to encourage either you to sell out, or making it look like an opportunity is happening for layers so someone jumps in front of the money on the lay side and they sell out your 100 quid.
Thats the simplest form of it. If you research stock manipulation from the financial world (none bf stuff) and market making manipulation you will probably find a few of the tricks used and replicated on here. In the financial world they try and restrict stop it as it is illegal but BF is not monitored.
Sent you the link by the way. Its a private video but i dont mind you sharing your comments if you think the 9K looks a bit out of place in that market that has so little money matched. There is 14K matched at the point the 9k lay enters the market and it is taken moving it to 32 K matched. Its not the fact the money is matched but more of the reaction after. You would expect more fireworks after that amount of money being matched but the market pretty much goes back to 40 quids and the price doesnt move anywhere. It felt more a flexing of the muscles to me. If you think the opposite then also share your comments. Im not saying Im right or wrong but just sharing my frustrations at what I see happening in very short term trading markets.
If someone wants to back a horse at 4.3 for 50 quid on an irish 3m race with 1 min to go they will happily take your 50 quid and try and sell it at 4.4,4.5. If nothing else arrives at the market they will hold it there. If you add a further 50 quid, you may be lucky and they may take it to 4.6, 4.7 offering you even more value! Whilst doing so stacking up 000s behind the positions whilst making it weak on the back side to encourage either you to sell out, or making it look like an opportunity is happening for layers so someone jumps in front of the money on the lay side and they sell out your 100 quid.
Thats the simplest form of it. If you research stock manipulation from the financial world (none bf stuff) and market making manipulation you will probably find a few of the tricks used and replicated on here. In the financial world they try and restrict stop it as it is illegal but BF is not monitored.
Sent you the link by the way. Its a private video but i dont mind you sharing your comments if you think the 9K looks a bit out of place in that market that has so little money matched. There is 14K matched at the point the 9k lay enters the market and it is taken moving it to 32 K matched. Its not the fact the money is matched but more of the reaction after. You would expect more fireworks after that amount of money being matched but the market pretty much goes back to 40 quids and the price doesnt move anywhere. It felt more a flexing of the muscles to me. If you think the opposite then also share your comments. Im not saying Im right or wrong but just sharing my frustrations at what I see happening in very short term trading markets.
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
Jeff, I do profit from it. Being frustrated and making money can be confused.
I'm also frustrated at work because a Korean customer has just claimed quite a bit of money from us but it doesn't mean we won't make money a lot of money from them in the coming months and years.
Peter, I think I got some good recordings from last night to show what I mean about clearing out the money with perfect amounts. Some of it was 1 and half hours from the start of the first race as I think it's usually easier to identify that far out when money gets slushed around. I'm back off to Burma again tomorrow so I'll try and edit a vid and send you an email link to have a look at whilst I'm there. Also if I get the chance tonight I'll grab a few vids on the early races. I previously thought it was a X matching thing but as it was happening in play with big crazy random amounts arriving at the book both sides, I ran it by another trader and they didnt believe it was x matching.
Life is full of frustrations!
I'm also frustrated at work because a Korean customer has just claimed quite a bit of money from us but it doesn't mean we won't make money a lot of money from them in the coming months and years.
Peter, I think I got some good recordings from last night to show what I mean about clearing out the money with perfect amounts. Some of it was 1 and half hours from the start of the first race as I think it's usually easier to identify that far out when money gets slushed around. I'm back off to Burma again tomorrow so I'll try and edit a vid and send you an email link to have a look at whilst I'm there. Also if I get the chance tonight I'll grab a few vids on the early races. I previously thought it was a X matching thing but as it was happening in play with big crazy random amounts arriving at the book both sides, I ran it by another trader and they didnt believe it was x matching.
Life is full of frustrations!