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We were all new to Bet Angel once. Ask any question you like here and fellow forum members promise not to laugh. Betfair trading made simple.
GMBing
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:58 am

kelpie wrote:Euler - very impressive.

Yes, whoever said that scalping was ultimately unprofitable missed the point. Not that I trade scalping purely but really, when you boil it down, the history of capitalism is just scalping.

Colman's mustard, US rail barons, JP Morgan and banking... all worked out how to scalp markets for profit.

Yes indeed - and the intire banking system is insolvent

:)

I'm an open minded person but nothing has been said to make me believe scalping is a good trading platform or even to dispell the overwhelming evidence that it is not.

That being said I could be completely wrong and remain open to new evidence if it should appear

Regards

G
freddy
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:22 pm

So Nobody makes money from scalping then ?,

And with this in mind what makes you think that longer term trading can be profitable and why is it's any different ?

Whatever you do, you need an edge of some sort to win and overcome the odds / book % / commision.

And I can assure you that many people Do.
My edge for example is simply good timing, gained from many years of experience in the markets.

The key things to remember is that there are 3 possible outcomes win / lose and scratch,
And all you have to do to win is have more wins than losses, so really no need for any complicated maths.

And it's a good job in my case because i only got a D grade in my GCSE's oops :D .
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to75ne
Posts: 2439
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:37 pm

freddy wrote:Nobody makes money from scalping then ?,

A key thing to remember is that there are 3 possible outcomes win / lose and scratch,
And all you have to do is have more wins than losses, no complicated maths needed really imo :D .
its quite straight forward to identify what races are best scalped and probably more importantly at what times to the enter, exit and/or scratch.

as freddy states all you have to do is take more ticks than you lose, if you know when to scalp, its really quite straight forward and very profitable.
GMBing
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:58 am

Hi

OMG its just chat about trading techniques - As our PM would say "calm down dear!

I am sure many have made good gains from scalping but no one has yet given a clear explanation as to why anyone can overcome such a negitive opening position and the forum is awash with those who have explored it with complete failure

Likewise if you interviewed 100 punters and took the the most successful 5% and asked why they win so often they might reply because they are good at picking horses while the bottom 5% might say they are rubbish at picking horses - Off course they are by chance at two end of a scale of chance anf their ability at picking has nothing to do with it.

As to why longer term trend trading is different or better - If I entre a trade 2 hours before event to win 20 ticks or loss 20 ticks then at least I start from a 0.025 negitive position which is better than the 20% negitive on a 2 tick PL trade providing I had good criteria to enter the trade in that direction - However that is not a trading platform I would use either.

The last hour before event start is Lemmings playing Back/Lay tick point madness To reference back to my earlier post the preceding 4-6 hours will tell you the weight of the village fair Ox

Regards

G
freddy
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:22 pm

Im really not sure where all this starting from a negative position comes from tbh.

If i'm scalping then mostly i will have both back and lay bets up and if i have got it correct both sides will get filled almost simultaneously and im in profit, .

If im wrong then 9 times out of 10 i will scratch it and take no loss at all.
GMBing
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:58 am

Hi

That sounds like playing Make Market with a long or no stop loss - Not for me - Win 99 trades , loss it all and more in one

G
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Euler
Posts: 26437
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:39 pm

GMBing wrote:That being said I could be completely wrong and remain open to new evidence if it should appear
On this occasion you are completely wrong. You are just looking at it the wrong way. Not trying to be clever, but wanting you to think a bit harder about it and be more open minded.
GMBing
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:58 am

Hi Euler

It would be a refreshing thought to know I am completely wrong and scalping needs a good look at again. - I believe it was Albert Enstien who said "insanity is conducting the same exxperiment over and over hoping to get the result you want" And that pretty much sums up my and many others experience of scalping. I don't mind being wrong but show me or point me in the errors of my way

Regards

G
switesh
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:43 am

GMBing wrote:I'm an open minded person but nothing has been said to make me believe scalping is a good trading platform or even to dispell the overwhelming evidence that it is not.
G
Try scalping the Australian markets (ir-respective of the price, trend, and volatility of the front runners)....it's as easy as falling off a log. I could do it with my left hand, half-asleep, patch over my right eye, and still churn out a small profit and maintain a good strike rate. I don't even look at graphs, charts, volume, traded range, live pictures, commentary etc etc....just ladder, nothing else. Smooth and steady!

I'm not implying that it'll work this way forever or will remain this easy for long but it does currently because it is a much slower moving market and less competition. Ultimately, as this market evolves this seemingly easy strategy might begin to fall apart.

So there's the answer to your question - Scalping does work.

BUT - try scalping the average UK horse racing and it gets very hard (even on the ""quality"" races on Saturday's) during 'active trading time' (10 to 0 mins pre-off). You could wait until post-time until volatility drops a bit (but so will the fill-rate) and nip in for a tick or two once you know that big money has filled its belly and has moved out.

Also, the influence of big traders (you've seen them big amounts appear, disappear, and dictate price movements) on UK racing is very prominent. These traders are 'Dictators of the Market'. They kick off trends, cause sharp reversals, hold price, and possess the power (i.e. money, balls, and temperament) to 'shape' the market.

From my own experience, I tend to look for consummate profit (swings) to offset the loses, therefore I don't scalp much during the 'active trading period'. I have to swing it, and often try to piggy-back on the big money. Scalping too often here spells trouble for small money.

So to answer your question again - Scalping doesn't work too well (or at-least is not lucrative enough) in this market.

But I try my own little variation here, quite often I don't fit in the 'win' market (dense volume market like grp races on Saturday's), but by raising my stakes I can fit comfortably in the 'place' market for the same race (even though the liquidity may be much poorer). So it is there that I may have to look for scalping.


It's just as Euler mentioned earlier - some strategies work on certain markets, but not on others.

To add to that, I would say knowing how big (or small) you are in the market will help you determine if you can make a strategy work or not.
User avatar
Euler
Posts: 26437
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:39 pm

GMBing wrote:"insanity is conducting the same exxperiment over and over hoping to get the result you want"
Insanity is doing that but, not learning from it.
GMBing
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:58 am

In trying to learn I even reached the point where I concluded it is better to scalp when WOM and sharp movement of trend is completely against you - but its just too big a negitive opening position to make long term profit. Still clearly some have sucess with the trading technique but it don't stack up for me

G
tweebie1999
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:23 am

You have to learn which markets to apply which strategy to. You can make money scalping but you need the knowledge of which races to do it in and at what time. There are always many opinions floating about but once you learn how the market behaves you can scalp it succesfully
freddy
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:22 pm

GMBing wrote:Hi

That sounds like playing Make Market with a long or no stop loss - Not for me - Win 99 trades , loss it all and more in one

G

No No It’s nothing like that at all, far from it,

I mean I won’t lie to you, no matter how good you are there will always be times that the market moves badly against you and you lose 10 ticks,
but this should be rare occurrence and certainly shouldn’t be the end of the world,

In fact I would go as far to say if this is happening on a regular basis then you doing something badly wrong, Maybe your trying to scalp the wrong type of market or certainly at the wrong times.

Myself Generally I would be rather upset if I lost more than 4-5 ticks when scalping,
So Not sure where you got the no stop loss thing from.

99 wining trades and then one big loss actually sound great to me, i would take that all day.
As I would have to be rather foolish to lose 99 ticks all on one trade .

As I mentioned i scratch an awful lot of my trades too, this is the best form of stop loss as there is no loss, mastering it is also imo is a hugh part of becoming profitable,
of cause selecting the right markets and the right time to scalp is another.

Good luck to you anyway and I hope you find a way to profit :) .
steven1976
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am

As Freddy said I think, scalping is about good timing. It's about knowing your position in the queue. There is no point sticking money for example behind 500 quid on the lay side of 6s and expect to scalp it from there. If your in a good position away from the money for example at the front of the line and the market moves towards you, if you manage to slip in the opposing trade at the front of the queue so that you now are at the very front of the book on both sides, that should in turn put you in a good position. If the market suddenly turns back and you don't get both matched then you need to be ready to scratch it
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