Betfair's relationship with their customers has really gone downhill since they went public.
Betfair not turning race inplay - carl 15:00
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
I got my call back from Betfair earlier, they confirmed that the reason my bet was cancelled was because I modified it, I changed the price, keeping it close to the price I submitted it at but far enough away so as to try and ensure it would not be matched.
They say this counts as a new bet that was placed now after the off and as such should be voided.
I asked for clarification on where it states this is classed as a new bet but non was forthcoming. I highlighted that when you alter the price on the API as I did and the market is suspended it comes back with the error message that the bet can not be modified, not that a new bet could not be placed but they had no interest in this point.
I highlighted the fact that there rules were very dubious in that they can use them to manipulate the SP to their advantage as I detailed previously. To which he said that he didn't believe they would do this but imo there is nothing to stop them doing so if they so wished.
I asked what I was supposed to have done so as to allow my bet to stand, and bar praying there was nothing basically that anyone can do.
If you were to have laid the horse that turned out to be the winner, or backed a horse that did not win and Betfair were unable to suspend the market before the race ended you would be near guaranteed that all these take SP bets would be voided as the winner would hit 1.01 and the losers 1000.0 meaning all these bets would be matched and thus voided.
So basically there is absolutely nothing you can do other than sit there and hope and pray that Betfair suspend the market before someone comes along and matches your bet.
I asked why they could not just role the market back to the official off time and they had no answer for this other than basically they currently can't do it. Obviously this is the 100% fair way of dealing with the situation as no one loses or wins bar the bets that they placed. Yes if you had planned to close out a trade you would still lose but they don't guarantee and I don't think it reasonable that they guarantee to always allow you to do this - no company ever has 100% up time.
So the situation has been left that I confirmed I have given them all reasonable opportunity to settle the dispute and I declined their goodwill offer of £50 and will now be taking the case to IBAS.
Who knows what the outcome will be from that, I have never dealt with them before. But as I explained to Betfair, if nothing else I hope to cost them more than the money I lost and wanted refunded.
Medium case outcome is I get my money back.
Best case is I get some kind of ruling that the way they deal with these situations is not right and they are forced to change it to rolling back the market to the official off time.
So I guess this is going to take a while but I will let people know what is happening and what the outcome is.
Finally as far as I am concerned enough is enough of taking it from Betfair - time to give them a bit back.
If anyone else has ever disputed this kind of situation please get in touch on here or by PM.
They say this counts as a new bet that was placed now after the off and as such should be voided.
I asked for clarification on where it states this is classed as a new bet but non was forthcoming. I highlighted that when you alter the price on the API as I did and the market is suspended it comes back with the error message that the bet can not be modified, not that a new bet could not be placed but they had no interest in this point.
I highlighted the fact that there rules were very dubious in that they can use them to manipulate the SP to their advantage as I detailed previously. To which he said that he didn't believe they would do this but imo there is nothing to stop them doing so if they so wished.
I asked what I was supposed to have done so as to allow my bet to stand, and bar praying there was nothing basically that anyone can do.
If you were to have laid the horse that turned out to be the winner, or backed a horse that did not win and Betfair were unable to suspend the market before the race ended you would be near guaranteed that all these take SP bets would be voided as the winner would hit 1.01 and the losers 1000.0 meaning all these bets would be matched and thus voided.
So basically there is absolutely nothing you can do other than sit there and hope and pray that Betfair suspend the market before someone comes along and matches your bet.
I asked why they could not just role the market back to the official off time and they had no answer for this other than basically they currently can't do it. Obviously this is the 100% fair way of dealing with the situation as no one loses or wins bar the bets that they placed. Yes if you had planned to close out a trade you would still lose but they don't guarantee and I don't think it reasonable that they guarantee to always allow you to do this - no company ever has 100% up time.
So the situation has been left that I confirmed I have given them all reasonable opportunity to settle the dispute and I declined their goodwill offer of £50 and will now be taking the case to IBAS.
Who knows what the outcome will be from that, I have never dealt with them before. But as I explained to Betfair, if nothing else I hope to cost them more than the money I lost and wanted refunded.
Medium case outcome is I get my money back.
Best case is I get some kind of ruling that the way they deal with these situations is not right and they are forced to change it to rolling back the market to the official off time.
So I guess this is going to take a while but I will let people know what is happening and what the outcome is.
Finally as far as I am concerned enough is enough of taking it from Betfair - time to give them a bit back.
If anyone else has ever disputed this kind of situation please get in touch on here or by PM.
It's an interesting discussion with Betfair. I have always been completely confused as to how they settle these orders than are moved to normal bets to take SP. Some times I have benefited and other times I have not. Good luck Andy with your pursuit and please keep us informed of what happens.
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spreadbetting
- Posts: 3140
- Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm
Betfair have finally replied to me their off times for the races
"The off time for the 15.00 at Carlisle on this day was 15:00.25 and the off time the Wolvenhampton 15.05 was 15:05.38."
These aren't in line with the off times listed on the ATR site for some reason which are listed as 15:00:27 and 15:05:38 respectively. Not too sure where they're getting the times from so if anyone knows of other sources for off times.
So what would be the last time would people assume betfair would allow bets to stand on the 15:00 Carlisle, placed 15:00:24 or placed 15:00:25
"The off time for the 15.00 at Carlisle on this day was 15:00.25 and the off time the Wolvenhampton 15.05 was 15:05.38."
These aren't in line with the off times listed on the ATR site for some reason which are listed as 15:00:27 and 15:05:38 respectively. Not too sure where they're getting the times from so if anyone knows of other sources for off times.
So what would be the last time would people assume betfair would allow bets to stand on the 15:00 Carlisle, placed 15:00:24 or placed 15:00:25
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
I have been away recently and whilst away I have had an email back from Betfair who have said:Euler wrote:Good luck Andy with your pursuit and please keep us informed of what happens.
This email came off the back of me taking the case to IBAS. I wrote IBAS a detailed explanation as to what had happened and what I think should have happened and what outcome I wanted.Betfair wrote:Although we stand by our position that we voided your bet in accordance with the mutually applying terms and conditions, we have decided as a gesture of goodwill, to make an ex gratia payment to you and refund your stake.
As IBAS have no power over Betfair's T&C's I have closed the case with them now as I have got back all that I financially wanted from Betfair.
I personally would urge others to take their cases up when they arise and not run scared of Betfair. They have not closed my account and I am free to continue using them. Had I not got my money back I would be pursing it further and would suggest others do likewise when the situation happens. Don't just accept it and don't accept the first offer you get from Betfair if you are owed more.
Time to resurrect this thread, I've renamed it as well so I can find it! 
(Many thanks to Andy for locating the thread for me)
Today a race went off at Galway 3:30 late. Oh shite I thought, my closing position will not be taken and I'll take a thumping. Anyhow the market settled as normal so I queried with BF. I was referred to the 'new' rules. Section 1.2 general betting
All markets other than soccer markets and Australian markets - not suspending at the time of the 'off'
In relation to markets which are scheduled to be turned in-play, Betfair aims to use its reasonable endeavours to turn such markets in-play at the time of the 'off'. The time of the 'off' for such markets should be set out in the Market Information. However, regardless of what it says in the Market Information, Betfair does not guarantee that such markets will be suspended and turned in-play at the time of the 'off'.
If a market is scheduled to be turned in-play but Betfair does not suspend the market at the time of the 'off' and the market is not turned in-play at any time during the event, all bets matched after the scheduled time of the 'off' will be void (in the case of horseracing and greyhound racing, bets will be void from the official rather than the scheduled 'off' time). If the event does not have a scheduled 'off' time, Betfair will use its reasonable endeavours to ascertain the time of the actual 'off' and all bets after the time of the 'off' determined by Betfair will be void.
If a market is scheduled to be turned in-play but Betfair does not suspend the market at the time of the 'off' (so unmatched bets are not cancelled at that time), but the market is intentionally turned in-play at a later time during the event, all bets matched after the time of the 'off' will stand.
(Many thanks to Andy for locating the thread for me)Today a race went off at Galway 3:30 late. Oh shite I thought, my closing position will not be taken and I'll take a thumping. Anyhow the market settled as normal so I queried with BF. I was referred to the 'new' rules. Section 1.2 general betting
All markets other than soccer markets and Australian markets - not suspending at the time of the 'off'
In relation to markets which are scheduled to be turned in-play, Betfair aims to use its reasonable endeavours to turn such markets in-play at the time of the 'off'. The time of the 'off' for such markets should be set out in the Market Information. However, regardless of what it says in the Market Information, Betfair does not guarantee that such markets will be suspended and turned in-play at the time of the 'off'.
If a market is scheduled to be turned in-play but Betfair does not suspend the market at the time of the 'off' and the market is not turned in-play at any time during the event, all bets matched after the scheduled time of the 'off' will be void (in the case of horseracing and greyhound racing, bets will be void from the official rather than the scheduled 'off' time). If the event does not have a scheduled 'off' time, Betfair will use its reasonable endeavours to ascertain the time of the actual 'off' and all bets after the time of the 'off' determined by Betfair will be void.
If a market is scheduled to be turned in-play but Betfair does not suspend the market at the time of the 'off' (so unmatched bets are not cancelled at that time), but the market is intentionally turned in-play at a later time during the event, all bets matched after the time of the 'off' will stand.
I watched that market. It was interesting to see that the shape of the market change completely ONLY after magical word INPLAY. How many people trading pre-race did realize that the market was inplay actually.
Novice Chase 5yo+, 2m 1f, 6 runners
Winner €14,949
Going: Heavy
Surface: Turf
Winning time: 5m 8.80s
Off time: 14:20:13
the race started at -00:00:13 and turned inplay at -00:03:35
For such a race the prices usually go crazy after ~2mins. At 3 mins they are very volatile with lots of us and down moves. This one was so calm for 3m22s. Also no 1second delay on placing bets and a close book. Is this another shape of its efficiency?
Novice Chase 5yo+, 2m 1f, 6 runners
Winner €14,949
Going: Heavy
Surface: Turf
Winning time: 5m 8.80s
Off time: 14:20:13
the race started at -00:00:13 and turned inplay at -00:03:35
For such a race the prices usually go crazy after ~2mins. At 3 mins they are very volatile with lots of us and down moves. This one was so calm for 3m22s. Also no 1second delay on placing bets and a close book. Is this another shape of its efficiency?
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Y, I noticed that. I was tempted to do something, but the confusion about what Betfair would do stopped me from getting involved.
I thought it was really weird how the market obviously hadn't really worked out it was inplay, yet it was so obvious it begged the question of why was the word 'inplay' so important. Was nobody watching it?
I thought it was really weird how the market obviously hadn't really worked out it was inplay, yet it was so obvious it begged the question of why was the word 'inplay' so important. Was nobody watching it?
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Don't think bots can watch races yetEuler wrote:Was nobody watching it?
