How much of Bank needed to go full time for £30k profit p.a.

[npatel999]

Hi,

I've been using bet angel for the last 4-5 months and started with £2k bank and increased over the months to £3k. It's currently hovering around £3.5k but it did went down considerably few weeks ago. So £500 profit isn't that great but I'm still in the hunt. I mostly trade on weekends and I'm beginning to make £300-£400 on a good day but have losses of £200-£300 on bad days. So I'm taking 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. But I'm thinking that if I went full-time then I would be able to increase my experience & research and thereby increase my return. I want to make about £30k. p.a. which is about £41k gross. To make £30 p.a., I need to make £110 per day x 6 days x 45 weeks. I want to mostly trade on horse racing market as I want to avoid subjective biases effecting my bets.

So my questions are:
1) How much do I require in my account at the beginning in order to ensure that I achieve on average £110 per day
2) Approx. how many people are out there that may be making £30k or above p.a. using Betfair?
3) Is going full time with such plan a good idea?

Thanks

[ducati01]

Hi npatel

Money management is a very fun subject. First thoughts are you seem to be doing O.K. However could it be the case you are over trading ?

For instance, with a 2K bank componded over one year you would make with a 1% profit target per day, readyyyyy ? 75,566.87€

Your first day's profit target would be 20€

Just a thought, good luck.

Regards

Greg

[andyfuller]

So my questions are:
1) How much do I require in my account at the beginning in order to ensure that I achieve on average £110 per day
2) Approx. how many people are out there that may be making £30k or above p.a. using Betfair?
3) Is going full time with such plan a good idea?

1. How long is a piece of string? Depends entirely on your trading style. It is possible to make £100 most days using say a £200 bank. At the same time others will use £1,000's to make £100. Entirely depends upon how you trade. As I say you can achieve those results with £200 so imo it is down to you personally.

2. Again how long is a piece of string? There are no statistics on this as only Betfair know. On horses my personal opinion is that there are less than 100 people making a living from trading them pre race. The vast majority of people lose so you are doing something right already, the turnover on new traders is huge.

There are obviously a lot more people makign money i/r, bookmaking, backing, laying etc etc but pure pre race tradign is less than 100 imo.

3. Sounds like you are sensible enough and have set achievable targets. But if it is right for you to go full time is hard to answer - for example are you committed to a mortgage? Do you have kids, a wife? Will you be able to actually trade as much as you plan? Have you thought about when you can't trade i.e when the weather is bad like January? Do you have savings to fall back on if you go on a bad long run or lose a heap due to BF crashing? How will it affect your social life? Do you need interaction at 'work' with others? How will it affect your employability in 4 years if trading is no more by then? 10years ago BF wasn't around who knows what will happen in the next 10 years! Whats your exit plan?

I could go on but I won't I hope that helps you think about it before you make the step as it is a big step but it also has big rewards!

Good luck.

3.

[Iron]

You don't pay tax on earnings from trading. However, bear in mind the 20% Premium Charge when working out your calcuations.

Jeff

I want to make about £30k. p.a. which is about £41k gross.

[Predicton]

Hi N,

I'm at about the same stage as you, with regard to experience, although I've got a tiny bank, being a tight Yorkshireman and, again due to an extreme aversion to parting with my money, have set my trades to a flat rate 1/20 of my bank per trade, to allow for errors of judgement. I'm making between 33% and 75% of a trading unit per full days trading, at the moment. Ultimately my target, like yours is £100 per day which would return me the equivelant of my salary. So my bank will need to be £100x3x20=£6000 for me to feel comfortable going fulltime. Of course this is a naive view since it doesn't take into account the possibility of diminishing returns, charges, illness, legislation or a dozen other factors, but it does give me aclue as to what I'll need. One other thing, I'd want to trade for a year at this level first, before doing anything as risky as jacking in work, to give me effectively a years salary to live on, during thin times.

I'm sure that there'll be other views, but I hope that this helps with your calculations,

cheers, P

[hgodden]

1) How much do I require in my account at the beginning in order to ensure that I achieve on average £110 per day
2) Approx. how many people are out there that may be making £30k or above p.a. using Betfair?
3) Is going full time with such plan a good idea?

1) Obviously it depends on how you're trading, but you don't need anymore than you are using already, I would suspect most people making those kind of £100 a day average figures would use less.

2) I believe there are nowhere near as many as is commonly believed. Adam Heathcote said he thought there were 100 or so making a living from it, though certainly not everyone is above 30k.

3) In my opinion you need more experience, certainly if you're having many losing days still. Unless you are an in play trader or have a unique strategy which brings HUGE rewards when it comes off but small losses when it doesn't, you really shouldn't be having many losing days at all. The only time a pro pre race trader should have a losing day really should be in exceptional circumstances, such as letting one go in play, BF going down, perhaps being foolish enough to trade while sick etc. Also remember trading during the week is different to weekends, the markets are different. Plus when you start getting hit with the premium charge there is little advantage over not paying tax.

My opinion would be to keep doing what you're doing and maybe later on give it a go during a weeks holiday to see how you go and also so you can see if it actually suits you as a person to be doing it day in day out. You have to be in an extremely competitive mindset everyday or you will lose money, and there's no way of knowing if you can do this until you have had a good stint at it. There's also the isolation aspect to consider. If work allows come spring time the evening races start so maybe you can get some extra practice in during that time too.

It sounds like you're making a pretty decent fist of it in a short space of time so well done, just be a bit careful about getting to ahead of yourself as it's easily done

[Krzysztof]

I really don't think that bank of ˆ£2000 in comparison with £3500 should make huge difference. Maybe for Adam or Peter does but it shouldn't in order to make £100 a day I think.

I believe that starting to pay yourself (make withdrawals) should improve Your trading, at least that's how it was with me.

[npatel999]

Thanks for some really useful comments & suggestions, guys. I get the sense that you don’t really need big bank to generate £100 as say £5,000 bank at 2% return per day should be enough. However, I need to learn and develop ways to utilise most of the bank to generate sufficient % return. I was listening to Peter Webb’s webinar on Sunday and he said that you should expect to earn 10% a day and real pros earn probably much more. And the reason he said was because you should constantly be using the fund you have to generate return. i.e. using your bank 3, 4, 5 times on each race.

I wasn’t planning to hand in my resignation imminently but instead I need to increase my experience and knowledge and working at it for at least a year or two.

Thanks,
NP

[SpikeyBob]

...speaking of webinars, does anyone have a recording of the last one that was held on 12th October last year that I can get hold of please?

Also, are there any plans for another one being held Peter?

Thanks

SB

[SteveMariner]

Hi, I managed to clear 23k last year. I started with a bank of £400, did ok for a few months, then upped my broadband speed to 20megs per sec and saw my profits increase. Then I upped my bank to £1000 and with it my profits increased again. Looking to clear 36k this year with £1000 bank. Cleared about 2k in Jan, but not that much racing with all the snow. So to answer your question on how much in your account, I reacon it can be done with a £1000 bank. Good luck.

Steve

[enzabella2009]

week 1 £100 starting stake + 30% profits over 7 days of tradings. week2 £130 + 30% £169
week3 £169 + 30% £219.7
week4 £219.7 +30% £285.61
week5 £285.61+30% £371.293
week6 £371.298+30%£482.6809
week7 £482.6809+30%£627.48517
week8 £815.74+30% £1060.46
week9 £1060.46+30% £1378.60
week10 £1378.60+30% £1789.78
week11 £1789.78+30% £2326.71
week13 £2326.71+30% £3024.72
week14 £3024.72+30% £3932.14
week15 £5111.78 week16 £6645.31 week17 £8638.90 week18 £11230.57 week19 £14599.74 week20 £18979.66 stop= 948.98 per week. start 100 again. you can only achieve that with in play football matches. you can forget about making huge profits with horses. only less then 100 people over hundreds of 1000s making profits over horses. one football professional trader have paid 250K premium charge in if im not wrong over 6 months of tradings. you do the maths.
good luck.

[luke726]

Peter's Webinar???? is that the one in videos or did i miss one lately??? he has only done one aint he???

[spreadbetting]

All depends on your trading style and more importantly how good a trader you are. As traders we can, and should, be turning that bank over several times a day if not each race so £500 would easily acheive an average of £5 per race over say 20 races in the day.

Big banks might sound a good idea when trading but in reality you need to build up to amounts you're comfortable trading at. From your opening post it seems you're playing at far too high a level now to be having £400 good days and £300 bad days, that'd be OK if it was one bad day a week but I'm guessing that isn't the case. With those pnl figures you may as well be gambling. You'd be much better dropping stakes and maybe turning over more trades to avoid the big losses creating losing days.

You need to get things on a more consistent level before looking to go full time, it'll mean the big days aren't as big but if it gets rid of the losing days it'll soon add up to a better pnl long term.

[Iron]

. only less then 100 people over hundreds of 1000s making profits over horses..

Hi Enzabella

Out of interest, where do you get that stat?

Jeff