I'm a bit...fed up, confused...whatever

[Scalping2go]

A few points but firstly thanks for the comments - Reading others views may make us better gamblers.
. We are all gamblers if we have bet Angel
. My selection is manual - as yet i am unable to automate my selection method
. The stake depends on the size of the market firstly and secondly your bank balance. Placing $1000 on a small market leads to the poor house as it is impossible to get a bet closed and greened.
. Selection method - look at the first three fav. when one starts to drift it is highly likely that one of the others will shorten. If not wait for the next race.
. As some do not consider the movement happens - look at the charts of the three selections and see the movement. The correlation of the movement is terrific
. Must go and have some Moet: a little tongue in cheek but it is true

Thanks for all the correspondence it has been fun.

[gazuty]

I don't understand why Scalping2Go is getting a third degree grilling. He has stated his method; essentially taking direction from the first 3 in betting as their odds change. A method, I have to say sounds pretty much what Mugs himself does.

I don't see why he couldn't make it work as well as Mugs does and I say; good on ya fella!

Getting the 3rd degree from Mugs is a right of passage on these forums. Sharpens up ones thinking. Certainly saved me money.

When anyone bursts onto the scene in these forums and throws out a detailed strategy questions will follow (particularly if the strategy description is a little inconsistent, 1 tick scalps, always back first with a manual lay - but why manual if the scalp is 1 tick? then an example of a 6 tick scalp).

No one need feel the need to respond to any critics or question. Participation is voluntary and a diversity of views leads to greater collective intelligence. If we all thought the same (insert your favourite cliché).

But I agree, good on scalps for having a go and putting himself in the ring. http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html

[Groovyelms]

The Badger is about I think, Toddy has probably gone back to the Caribbean

Thx Mugs,

Am I right in remebering that the Badger was from down under?

wonder if he still trades...

groovy

[mugsgame]

The Badger is about I think, Toddy has probably gone back to the Caribbean

Thx Mugs,

Am I right in remebering that the Badger was from down under?

wonder if he still trades...

groovy

Yeah I think the Badger has gone back down under Groovy. Last I heard he was trying to set up some sort of education. (probably teaching what he learned in the UK and drag the Aussies into this century)

[mugsgame]

I don't understand why Scalping2Go is getting a third degree grilling. He has stated his method; essentially taking direction from the first 3 in betting as their odds change. A method, I have to say sounds pretty much what Mugs himself does.

I don't see why he couldn't make it work as well as Mugs does and I say; good on ya fella!

Getting the 3rd degree from Mugs is a right of passage on these forums. Sharpens up ones thinking. Certainly saved me money.

When anyone bursts onto the scene in these forums and throws out a detailed strategy questions will follow (particularly if the strategy description is a little inconsistent, 1 tick scalps, always back first with a manual lay - but why manual if the scalp is 1 tick? then an example of a 6 tick scalp).

No one need feel the need to respond to any critics or question. Participation is voluntary and a diversity of views leads to greater collective intelligence. If we all thought the same (insert your favourite cliché).

But I agree, good on scalps for having a go and putting himself in the ring. http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html

James - What he does is NOTHING like I do. I am looking for swings. I agree one of my methods is similar in that if in the main players it's possible to catch a steam or drift in one of them. That's pretty obvious stuff. But if you applied this method the way Scalping2go is advocating then it cannot work on the UK markets. I am giving him a hard time because I think some of the more inexperienced chaps might be being led up a path that will cost them money. Tell me honestly (I respect your opinion James) would this have worked on any race yesterday?

Notice as well that Scalping2go has not answered ANY of my questions, he has skirting around them. If he can answer them and what he says is correct, I will be the first to apologise for my scepticism.

Gaz makes a good point. Yeah, I do give some posters a hard time. That is because I care about the wider community and put a lot of effort into trying to help point them in the right direction. I get 100's of messages and emails weekly, from guys seeking guidance. I sincerely hope that I help them in some small way. But that means I have tuned in to the level of expertise that is around. I am merely trying to protect these guys from having their pants taken down.

Like I said. Fair play to Scalping2go, if he can make this "method" work on Aus markets (on a Sat) -There is NO WAY WHATSOEVER it can or will work on UK racing. It may get lucky with some races, but consistently to make profit - No chance. This is backed up by 8 years of professional trading and ten of thousands of races traded. The issue with 1 tick trading is the answer to the question (that is still un answered by S2G) what's your exit if the trade goes against you? If you are hoping for 1 tick and it drifts 5 do you bail out of hope it comes back? Even linear price moves have ebbs and flows.

MG

[LeTiss]

One of the biggest mistakes newbies, or unsuccessful traders make is cutting good trades too soon, and cutting bad trades too late

This is a major problem of scalping - it only takes one major spike of 10 ticks to destroy all the excellent work of 9 previous races. Swing traders are slightly firewalled from these concerns, as it doesn't take them 9 races to recover 9 tick losses

Virtually all of the successful horse racing traders I know, are predominately looking for swing opportunities, not a 1 tick scalp

[hgodden]

One of the biggest mistakes newbies, or unsuccessful traders make is cutting good trades too soon, and cutting bad trades too late

This is a major problem of scalping - it only takes one major spike of 10 ticks to destroy all the excellent work of 9 previous races.

I think it's interesting this quote crops up now, because I think that a problem in the way we generally talk about trading (especially the racing markets) as if it's black or white, one thing or another. People who scalp well have to duck and dive the movements of the markets and think a lot about what's happening, its not just a case of slamming orders on both sides and hoping for the best, and I'm sure that swing traders don't just always make the stereotypical one entry point followed by one nice exit point a couple of minutes later. All sorts of crazy new things and challenges are happening in every single new market and whatever anyone is doing, they have to adapt as well as they can to what is in front of them. I must have seen tens of thousands of markets but I don't remember ever seeing two the same.

A lot of the confusion in these type of discussions occurs due to limitations we have about conceptualising and then trying to communicate what we do to others.

Newbies would do well to have a very open mind about how people might manage to make money from trading and try not to think too much that 'this is like this' and 'that is like that' without really playing around a lot to find what works for them. When I first started making money trading I found myself a bit surprised and said to myself 'well I'm making money but I'm not really trading' (at least in terms of how I thought a trader does act) but sometimes with experience you come to redefine, at least in your own mind, what something is and what is possible.

People who come into trading with their minds full of preconceived ideas will have their vision clouded and miss things that they may otherwise see actually in front of them! And I think the language that use to describe our trading and that we are all limited by helps with that confusion. So something for newbies to be aware of

[kroni]

A few points but firstly thanks for the comments - Reading others views may make us better gamblers.
. We are all gamblers if we have bet Angel
. My selection is manual - as yet i am unable to automate my selection method
. The stake depends on the size of the market firstly and secondly your bank balance. Placing $1000 on a small market leads to the poor house as it is impossible to get a bet closed and greened.
. Selection method - look at the first three fav. when one starts to drift it is highly likely that one of the others will shorten. If not wait for the next race.
. As some do not consider the movement happens - look at the charts of the three selections and see the movement. The correlation of the movement is terrific
. Must go and have some Moet: a little tongue in cheek but it is true

Thanks for all the correspondence it has been fun.

I tried this why of scalping when I first got betangel, just couldn't get it to work consistently for me. As you say you can see the correlation of the movement and how 1 runner is effecting 1 of the others. But when you see a drift on 1 horse the other moves immediately so you've kind of already missed the opportunity (is that due to cross matching?) and it is just as likely to return to its original price as carry on drifting.
Also you don't mention how bigger drift you are looking for before you get involved?
If you are getting involved after just small movements how do you know its just not slack in the book as with this, depending on price of the horse it can move up to 5 or so ticks and nothing else has to move. With this in mind how do you enter your trade would you take a price or wait in the que, if the latter how long do you wait to get matched before cancelling it.
I noticed you said about Aussie racing, I've never traded this, is the cross matching same as on UK racing?

I'd like to point out i'm a inexperienced trader and I may not have applied this method correctly, but for me it just didn't work for some of the reasons mentioned above. Will be interested in how you get it to work in more detail.

[gazuty]

One of the biggest mistakes newbies, or unsuccessful traders make is cutting good trades too soon, and cutting bad trades too late

This is a major problem of scalping - it only takes one major spike of 10 ticks to destroy all the excellent work of 9 previous races.

I think it's interesting this quote crops up now, because I think that a problem in the way we generally talk about trading (especially the racing markets) as if it's black or white, one thing or another. People who scalp well have to duck and dive the movements of the markets and think a lot about what's happening, its not just a case of slamming orders on both sides and hoping for the best, and I'm sure that swing traders don't just always make the stereotypical one entry point followed by one nice exit point a couple of minutes later. All sorts of crazy new things and challenges are happening in every single new market and whatever anyone is doing, they have to adapt as well as they can to what is in front of them. I must have seen tens of thousands of markets but I don't remember ever seeing two the same.

A lot of the confusion in these type of discussions occurs due to limitations we have about conceptualising and then trying to communicate what we do to others.

Newbies would do well to have a very open mind about how people might manage to make money from trading and try not to think too much that 'this is like this' and 'that is like that' without really playing around a lot to find what works for them. When I first started making money trading I found myself a bit surprised and said to myself 'well I'm making money but I'm not really trading' (at least in terms of how I thought a trader does act) but sometimes with experience you come to redefine, at least in your own mind, what something is and what is possible.

People who come into trading with their minds full of preconceived ideas will have their vision clouded and miss things that they may otherwise see actually in front of them! And I think the language that use to describe our trading and that we are all limited by helps with that confusion. So something for newbies to be aware of

Indeed.

[James1st]

I was not defending Scalping2Go's rationale or methodology nor am I condemning it because I simply don’t know whether the Aussie markets he is involved in always behave in a way that allows him to make a profit.

One thing is certain however and many seem to have missed the point; Scalping2Go is not “scalping” in the technical sense of the word and I do have a bee in my bonnet about the difference between scalping and trading to gain 1/2/3 ticks. He writes (in his first post) “Always make the intial bet going with the trend - DO NOT GUESS and put in a stop loss to cover the times you are wrong”. Just because his name is Scalping2Go and he refers to scalping does not mean he is scalping at all.

I understand why Mugs commented but the truth is that the method Scalping2Go describes is very similar to Mug’s logic (if you have watched his VT’s) and both traders are in fact trend trading…Mugs looking for big swings and Scalping2Go looking for 1-3 tick gains. Both are using the same logical approach that the first 3 in the betting, in the final 6-7 minutes of trading, will occupy roughly the same %age of the book and a movement in one of them will result in a reverse movement in another (ignoring the late steamers/drifters from outside those 3).

The question I have is that if the front 3 occupy 83% of the book at 7 minutes and also at 30 seconds, the assumption is that “at any stage” during this time the book value of the front 3 will remain unchanged viz odds movements therefore take place concurrently. The fact that odds changes between A, B and C are simultaneous precludes any trader from claiming “I backed/layed C because the odds on B were drifting/shortening” and this statement applies to both Scalping and Mug’s claims. There are simply no occasions when the related movements between horses A,B and C will happen consecutively.

[Iron]

Hi Mugs

Would you say that one tick scalping would work on big field markets where the fav is about 7.0, and prices typically move around within a small range?

As an aside, I made the point in a thread a couple of years ago that spikes could wipe out the gains from one tick scalping, but the consensus was that I was wrong: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5019

Jeff

The issue with 1 tick trading is the answer to the question (that is still un answered by S2G) what's your exit if the trade goes against you? If you are hoping for 1 tick and it drifts 5 do you bail out of hope it comes back? Even linear price moves have ebbs and flows.

MG

[mugsgame]

Hi Mugs

Would you say that one tick scalping would work on big field markets where the fav is about 7.0, and prices typically move around within a small range?

As an aside, I made the point in a thread a couple of years ago that spikes could wipe out the gains from one tick scalping, but the consensus was that I was wrong: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5019

Jeff

The issue with 1 tick trading is the answer to the question (that is still un answered by S2G) what's your exit if the trade goes against you? If you are hoping for 1 tick and it drifts 5 do you bail out of hope it comes back? Even linear price moves have ebbs and flows.

MG

Jeff, To me Scalping is best in a stable market (which is why I am confused about S2G's method, he seems to advocate waiting for some movement, which as James points out is similar to one of my methods. I have stacks of videos and I call it 2v1 on my blog. it's the simplest form.
So a short range at any price would seem to be ok. In truth I am not the best person to ask about Scalping, as I rarely do it. If I do it's usually at big meetings on very short priced runners with very large stakes.

[Scalping2go]

Some insignificant statistics from yesterday - I selected 2 races - as I was just attempting to prove a point. Started with $42.00, set BA - scalp 1 tick, initial bet/lay on market for 3 seconds if not matched cancelled, stop 3 ticks above entry. Manual entry of $20.00. Due to lack of capital in this eaxample a win bet was the initial trade position. Overall I had 24 closed trades, won 22 and lost 2. Just before the off I greened up in both races. Profit $1.25 in one and $0.85 in the other - Total profit $2.10. My first scalp was a loss of $1.25 and at no stage was I risking more than $20.00. Little profit but was it fun. (I estimate if I had had been able to have the lay bet as the opening of a trade my profit on the two races would have increased by about $1.20) Increase the stake and then my time was well spent financially anyway.

[gazuty]

Some insignificant statistics from yesterday - I selected 2 races - as I was just attempting to prove a point.

I really don't see any point proven here.

If you are truly adventurous put up a video mugsgame style and explain your trade as you go.

None of this is to say you are a bad trader. You may be a trading savant. But I just don't think you are in any way proving out your points.

Good luck to you.

[Iron]

If you are truly adventurous put up a video mugsgame style and explain your trade as you go.

I applaud Mugs's generosity in showing everyone what he does.

However, if you showcase a winning approach to a forum of traders, then don't be surprised if people copy your methods and your edge disappears...

Jeff