Hi,
Forgive me for maybe putting this in the wrong place, or if has been discussed before.
Premium Charge is an ever increasing bane, and I wondered if there are people who run automated strategies, to just churn commission, with the hope, that after all the effort, a net reduction in amount paid to Betfair is created.
By this, I mean, maybe the strategies lose 2% of turnover, but generate such churn, that the weekly PC is less.
If anyone thinks this is viable. I am willing to pay someone a percentage of the PC saved.
I don't think this is PC evasion .. Am willing to listen, if someone else does.
Automation loss leaders to reduce PC
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
Hi Megarin,
I think there might be a thread in the betfair section that touches on it. I think some top PC payers manage to save up to 20% from what I understood from reading the thread.
I think there might be a thread in the betfair section that touches on it. I think some top PC payers manage to save up to 20% from what I understood from reading the thread.
Does the rate of PC become a factor ?
I am on the cusp of 40%, some weeks paying quite a bit, others, not.
If automated strategies could run in the background, (on a different sub-account) then, then it should be a win/win.
Will check the Bf thread .. thx
I am on the cusp of 40%, some weeks paying quite a bit, others, not.
If automated strategies could run in the background, (on a different sub-account) then, then it should be a win/win.
Will check the Bf thread .. thx
Thinking about the 'PC' problem a little more :
I presume its possible to run automated strats, that place offsetting bets between Betdaq and Betfair. By ths I mean, Lay 10x on Betdaq, back 10x on Betfair, lose comm, but generate comm points.
I have set aside the next 2 weeks to try and program this myself . failing which, I will ask for help .. (which am happy to pay for).
Could someone quickly confirm this is correct.
Thx
I presume its possible to run automated strats, that place offsetting bets between Betdaq and Betfair. By ths I mean, Lay 10x on Betdaq, back 10x on Betfair, lose comm, but generate comm points.
I have set aside the next 2 weeks to try and program this myself . failing which, I will ask for help .. (which am happy to pay for).
Could someone quickly confirm this is correct.
Thx
Hi megarain,
I'm not fully sure what you're trying to achieve by churning commission. If you're already in the 40% bracket then I can't see how it will help very much. Unless you're talking about raising your discount rate so that you're at 60% base rate discount and having your "implied commission" higher. See this thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9510&start=10
Otherwise, whilst generating commission will lower your weekly PC charge, that's only because you've already paid it in commission. Unless I'm missing something.
I have thought about automated arbing between Betfair and Betdaq, and I'm sure there must be people out there doing it, but I decided it's too much hassle and not entirely risk-free.
Firstly you'll need to take into account PC charges on the Betfair side. Example: In one week you win £1000 on Betfair, and lose £1000 on Betdaq - You'll pay up to £400 to Betfair as PC, and therefore would be net -£400. You can adjust your stakes to compensate for it, but it's probably not trivial.
Secondly, if one of the exchanges has a problem, voids bets, crashes, etc.. then you could be left horribly exposed.
So overall I personally don't think it's worth the trouble. I'm sure there are people out there who do benefit from churning 1000s of commission though.
I'm not fully sure what you're trying to achieve by churning commission. If you're already in the 40% bracket then I can't see how it will help very much. Unless you're talking about raising your discount rate so that you're at 60% base rate discount and having your "implied commission" higher. See this thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9510&start=10
Otherwise, whilst generating commission will lower your weekly PC charge, that's only because you've already paid it in commission. Unless I'm missing something.
I have thought about automated arbing between Betfair and Betdaq, and I'm sure there must be people out there doing it, but I decided it's too much hassle and not entirely risk-free.
Firstly you'll need to take into account PC charges on the Betfair side. Example: In one week you win £1000 on Betfair, and lose £1000 on Betdaq - You'll pay up to £400 to Betfair as PC, and therefore would be net -£400. You can adjust your stakes to compensate for it, but it's probably not trivial.
Secondly, if one of the exchanges has a problem, voids bets, crashes, etc.. then you could be left horribly exposed.
So overall I personally don't think it's worth the trouble. I'm sure there are people out there who do benefit from churning 1000s of commission though.
Thx for the reply.
This is part of the problem with PC .. its never been properly explained IMHO, and the fact the Bf have the arrogance to make u look at a portal each week, to see how much u have to pay them tells u, shows how much they care.
I went thru a phase I would lay on Betdaq for 100, and backed to win 140 on Bf, and this did produce some swings, but, it was so time consuming, I stopped. Automation, would
be better.
The huge swings/exposure doesnt worry me.
Its v possible I am barking up the wrong tree .. I need to fully understand the calculation.
Will look at the link.
Thx
This is part of the problem with PC .. its never been properly explained IMHO, and the fact the Bf have the arrogance to make u look at a portal each week, to see how much u have to pay them tells u, shows how much they care.
I went thru a phase I would lay on Betdaq for 100, and backed to win 140 on Bf, and this did produce some swings, but, it was so time consuming, I stopped. Automation, would
be better.
The huge swings/exposure doesnt worry me.
Its v possible I am barking up the wrong tree .. I need to fully understand the calculation.
Will look at the link.
Thx
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Churning is what you need to do. I believe Peter has said on here that is what he does to get down to the 40% instead of paying 60%. As do many other people.
I was told by someone high up in Betfair that virtually no one pays 60% these days (just idiots like me if I were to trade), especially not of the big players. I was told by the person that that is what I should do if I wanted to return to BF and not pay 60%.
So unofficially it is Betfair's policy to get the higher players/winners to churn. That was almost a year ago (and reminds me I never got back to them with my idea about a different way of doing the PC that doesn't punish the smaller players) so things may have changed since, I doubt it though.
I was told by someone high up in Betfair that virtually no one pays 60% these days (just idiots like me if I were to trade), especially not of the big players. I was told by the person that that is what I should do if I wanted to return to BF and not pay 60%.
So unofficially it is Betfair's policy to get the higher players/winners to churn. That was almost a year ago (and reminds me I never got back to them with my idea about a different way of doing the PC that doesn't punish the smaller players) so things may have changed since, I doubt it though.
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
Slightly off topic but what were the ideas you were trying to get across Andy for PC? I presume based around the 250 lifetime amount but interested to hear your thoughts.
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verycrispy
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:45 am
what do you mean with "to churn"?andyfuller wrote:Churning is what you need to do. I believe Peter has said on here that is what he does to get down to the 40% instead of paying 60%. As do many other people.
I was told by someone high up in Betfair that virtually no one pays 60% these days (just idiots like me if I were to trade), especially not of the big players. I was told by the person that that is what I should do if I wanted to return to BF and not pay 60%.
So unofficially it is Betfair's policy to get the higher players/winners to churn. That was almost a year ago (and reminds me I never got back to them with my idea about a different way of doing the PC that doesn't punish the smaller players) so things may have changed since, I doubt it though.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Page 2 at the bottom of this thread:steven1976 wrote:Slightly off topic but what were the ideas you were trying to get across Andy for PC? I presume based around the 250 lifetime amount but interested to hear your thoughts.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8690&start=10
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spreadbetting
- Posts: 3140
- Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm
I think being hit for 80% at £100K would probably be more demoralising than the current 40% tbh.
Churning your way out of the 60% is relatively simple enough but churning 40% of your winnings, especially the way Betfair calculate, is a whole new ball game
Churning your way out of the 60% is relatively simple enough but churning 40% of your winnings, especially the way Betfair calculate, is a whole new ball game
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
A large part of the argument about bringing in the higher PC bands was that a small number were making the majority. The idea behind the much higher band above say £100,000 is that that is an amount people can dream of making and is an excellent living.
Those making over that, i.e. the small number who are taking the majority will pretty much be stopped. It should help to spread the winnings out among more people.
Paying 80% above £100,000 was supposed to do exactly what you say, be demoralising. Therefore, should to a large extent stop those making above that at taking out around £100,000 a year.
It means that those who have been at it for years and made relatively small amounts each year can keep at it. If I make £100 on Betfair I have to pay £60 so take home just £40. So it isn't even worth it just for a bit of fun on a Saturday when watching the racing. Hence why I use Betdaq now when I fancy a play
I am repeating my points from the other post so will stop but just add that the idea of the PC was not to encourage churning, it was a side effect.
Those making over that, i.e. the small number who are taking the majority will pretty much be stopped. It should help to spread the winnings out among more people.
Paying 80% above £100,000 was supposed to do exactly what you say, be demoralising. Therefore, should to a large extent stop those making above that at taking out around £100,000 a year.
It means that those who have been at it for years and made relatively small amounts each year can keep at it. If I make £100 on Betfair I have to pay £60 so take home just £40. So it isn't even worth it just for a bit of fun on a Saturday when watching the racing. Hence why I use Betdaq now when I fancy a play
I am repeating my points from the other post so will stop but just add that the idea of the PC was not to encourage churning, it was a side effect.
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
I don't think bf are bothered about sharing out the winnings, they just want it on their bottom line as quick as possible!
Maybe a progressive taxing would be better in the long term as there would be more success stories around to create more people wanting to be involved and bringing new people to BF through word of mouth.
If you were doing it full time and only making 50 K a year and then after tax only taking home 20K a year, it does seem a bit daft unless it took very little of your time to achieve that.
Maybe a progressive taxing would be better in the long term as there would be more success stories around to create more people wanting to be involved and bringing new people to BF through word of mouth.
If you were doing it full time and only making 50 K a year and then after tax only taking home 20K a year, it does seem a bit daft unless it took very little of your time to achieve that.