Ok so after further reading i think i was on the right lines with scratch trades but not quite. I think it's possible to generate commission without increasing profits by backing and laying equivalent markets. Churning i think it's called.
Can anyone confirm if, as a newbie, i can start implementing churning into my trading without any problems? And is it possible to generate 40% commission even when you start to make good money or is 10% more realistic?
If it's possible i then need to work out which markets are equivalent and the finer details of exactly how to do it like do i have to back and lay at the same odds or does the win/loss amount just have to be the same?
Super Premium Charge 40% Or 60%?
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steven1976
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If you have multiple linked accounts (old accounts only), you can just find a weak market and churn between your accounts with a zero p/l. If you are a new account holder, I dont think they allow it. Not 100% sure though so maybe someone else will clarify.
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
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I think as of Jan 2013 BF stopped allowing more than one account for new users if I understand the terms correct for multiple accounts http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Terms.and.Conditions/Euler wrote:Pretty sure if you are account managed you can get more than one account. Besides, use Betdaq and then Betfair don't get anywhere near as much commission.
Many thanks. Ah right so you mean i can offer up the money with one account and take it with the other, is that right? I've only been trading a few months but have been around for years and had a betfair account for some time. I think i signed up here, on the Bet Angel forums, in 2011 so i must have had a betfair account before then. Why did i not start trading back then, what was i doing!steven1976 wrote:If you have multiple linked accounts (old accounts only), you can just find a weak market and churn between your accounts with a zero p/l. If you are a new account holder, I dont think they allow it. Not 100% sure though so maybe someone else will clarify.
Roughly when was the cut off date for being allowed multiple accounts? Also how do you actually sign up for a second account? Can you use the same details including credit cards etc?
How do you know if you're account managed please and what does that mean? From your comment i'm clearly still not understanding things because isn't the point to give Betfair more commission without increasing profits to put you in a lower super premium charge bracket when you get there and if you can generate over 40% through churning, not pay any at all? I don't see where Betdaq come into it, in terms of churning. If the bet on Betfair wins and one on Betdaq loses, won't that make things worse?Euler wrote:Pretty sure if you are account managed you can get more than one account. Besides, use Betdaq and then Betfair don't get anywhere near as much commission.
Yeah damn it sounds like because i haven't created a second account before Jan 2013 i now can't do it, bugger. Can anyone confirm if that is indeed correct?steven1976 wrote:I think as of Jan 2013 BF stopped allowing more than one account for new users if I understand the terms correct for multiple accounts http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Terms.and.Conditions/Euler wrote:Pretty sure if you are account managed you can get more than one account. Besides, use Betdaq and then Betfair don't get anywhere near as much commission.
I think the terms changed when they acquired Blue Square and started pushing the sportsbook. Betfairs fixed odds are sometimes way out of line and during 2013 it was possible to make a lot of money arbing them. At first they started limiting people but of course you could just start up a new account so they stopped that.
It is also likely that if you had a Blue Square account before they were purchased you now have two betfair accounts already.
It is also likely that if you had a Blue Square account before they were purchased you now have two betfair accounts already.
When you say you will churn on your betfair account it isnt as straight forward as that, churning still carries a lot of risk. To get you charges up to 40% you will have to do one hell of a lot of churning, and if you are only operating with a small to medium sized bank then you will risk going broke every week just trying to create the commission to get your charges above 40%.
There are plenty of opportunities to churn across exchanges from betfair to Betdaq which will create commission without the same kind of risk and maybe in some cases even leave you with a small profit.
Or better still, switch to Betdaq altogther and not have to worry about churning at all. Churning isnt a risk free way of getting your charges up, particualrly if your bank isnt big enough to take the huge swings in results which churning will create.
There are plenty of opportunities to churn across exchanges from betfair to Betdaq which will create commission without the same kind of risk and maybe in some cases even leave you with a small profit.
Or better still, switch to Betdaq altogther and not have to worry about churning at all. Churning isnt a risk free way of getting your charges up, particualrly if your bank isnt big enough to take the huge swings in results which churning will create.
Cheers i thought 40% might be too much. I'm more than happy with generating 10% to make sure i'm on 40% SPC, which makes a big difference to my potential profit calculations. Getting to keep most of your money instead of losing most of it is fantasticoscar123 wrote:When you say you will churn on your betfair account it isnt as straight forward as that, churning still carries a lot of risk. To get you charges up to 40% you will have to do one hell of a lot of churning, and if you are only operating with a small to medium sized bank then you will risk going broke every week just trying to create the commission to get your charges above 40%.
There are plenty of opportunities to churn across exchanges from betfair to Betdaq which will create commission without the same kind of risk and maybe in some cases even leave you with a small profit.
Or better still, switch to Betdaq altogther and not have to worry about churning at all. Churning isnt a risk free way of getting your charges up, particualrly if your bank isnt big enough to take the huge swings in results which churning will create.
I've tried moving over to Betdaq recently but i get the impression the prices on Betdaq are being driven by what's happening on Betfair so you need to keep an eye on Betfair in order to trade Betdaq but as a newbie i don't have the screen space for both. So for now i've had to go back to Betfair until i can afford to upgrade my setup and trade both as we need to support both for the competition.
I think i may have used the word churning inappropriately and got the explanation of what i want to do wrong. I was meaning for example backing over 2.5 goals for 100 and also backing 0-0, 0-1, 1-0, 1-1 for 100 so whatever happens you win 100 and lose 100 making no profit but paying commission.
I am thinking i will not just pay commission on the winning bet but also get implied commission on the losing bet, is that correct?
I'm not understanding how using Betdaq would work unless you can guarantee your losing bet is on Betfair, in which case you might as well just have a straight bet on Betdaq. Can you elaborate please?
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steven1976
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- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
just go into a market with no activity and big open spreads such as asian handicap and slop money back and forth is much easier surely for generating commissions and leaving a zero balance between accounts? I dont do it, but i presume this would generate your commissions and BF are likely to be happy to let people do it as it creates liquidity within them markets and Im sure it could be done with a bot?
Was thinking about that last night. For it to work i think you would need to wait for moments when the equivalent odds on both sides are 2, if indeed that ever happens. I imagine this is where a speadsheet would come in and you would probably have to setup a server version to leave it running 24/7 and just make sure to check in on it at least once a day to load all the markets up and attach everything. This seems my best option so far.burdo77 wrote:Backing over 2.5 goals and laying the combos that make up 2.5 goals will gaurantee a loss if placed with betfair, due to the overound. However there are opportunities to arb between bookies but no something I would recommend.
I'm keen to get this boxed off and get on with the fun stuff, trading
No point waiting until you get the email from betfair, which you have to believe will happen one day.If anyone has any better options or can explain in more detail better options already mentioned in this thread, please let me know?