Back lay or abstain?

The sport of kings.

What would you do if faced with this chart?

Back
31
48%
Lay
12
18%
Abstain
22
34%
 
Total votes: 65
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JollyGreen
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

Zenyatta, you made a good point so let me give a bit more detail now my explanation is up.
Starting from 5.50 and moving into 2.60 is a huge move
You must allow for the early price being an error. The odds compilers and the early birds have taken a position on the price which is generous to say the least. The initial move from ~5.50 into ~3.x was the result of very little money and I for one could never hope to trade that move. The real move was from the low 3.x prices down to 2.60, at the lower prices there was a thin element to the money. What does that mean?

Layers are not all stupid, they are not going to stand in the way of a moving train. Very often you will see them moving their positions as they try to judge the low. Yes, some will just pile in trying to halt the move but they won't last long. If the market wants to move down it will move down, period! So the shrewd layers get out of the way...they abstain you could say! This moves the price quite quickly and the money traded drops slightly.

The next phase is driven slightly more by followers, the kind of traders who react to a market. They miss the initial move because they are unsure and by the time their brain has accepted a steam they join in and it gives the move a longer life. This is why we see a slight retrace as indecision kicks in. This is normal behaviour, there is no dark force at work.

So 3.20 into 2.60 is a realistic move but the money from ~2.70 down to 2.60 starts to thin out as backers loses interest and the bulk of the money is from followers coming to the party just as everyone is leaving.
98lewisj
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:17 am

Cheers for the post, for me without knowing the traded volume I had to abstain.
burdo77
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:13 am

Hi jolly, great post!

Would you arrive at a different descision if it was a 5 runner handicap?

In addition, is it likely that the market will corect itself earlier in the piece if there aren't many runners?

Cheers

Josh
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JollyGreen
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

Burdo77

Thank you, I appreciate that.

In a 5 runner handicap I would expect a bit more volatility but if nothing else was attracting money I would still expect the favourite to shorten up. I would also suggest the price would start lower as by definition there is less choice in a 5 runner handicap. That may mean the early bird price was mid 3.x and the actual trade started around 2.9x and perhaps pushed into 2.3x

Those figures are subjective but I would not expect to see a favourite start at 5.x in a 5 runner handicap.

JG
burdo77
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:13 am

a 5 runner handicap I would expect a bit more volatility
Would you expect more volatilty because there is less interest in small races?
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JollyGreen
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

I would not say less interest in a 5 runner race because it should be easier to find the winner! Well that is the theory.

In a 5 runner race there is less choice and less room for error in the book. If they force one out/in then others have to move quickly or the book will lose efficiency. That is why there is more volatility.

JG
burdo77
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:13 am

Ok, got it.

Thanks again.
vhdgkl
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:26 am

a bit later :D

why do you provided the information "handicap"?
Korattt
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:46 pm

would be good to have a little more info.. like what are the other runners behaving etc but at face value I would say back it because there's nothing to make me think otherwise
ged1200
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:40 pm

@JollyGreen

Very interesting thread, thank you for the example. As a newbie, one thing is puzzling me. You say that the traded volume is important:

"The market volume has been increasing at peak amounts for the past 30 seconds with 2 minutes to the official off time."

The money coming in (market volume) would be on both sides of the market? Without being able to see the figures being placed on both the lay and back sides of the market, I don't understand how the 'market volume increasing at peak amounts for the past 30 seconds' on it's own would help to determine whether the price is likely continue to come in or reverse and drift out?

Guess I'm missing something here...
Korattt
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:46 pm

ged1200 wrote:@JollyGreen

Very interesting thread, thank you for the example. As a newbie, one thing is puzzling me. You say that the traded volume is important:

"The market volume has been increasing at peak amounts for the past 30 seconds with 2 minutes to the official off time."

The money coming in (market volume) would be on both sides of the market? Without being able to see the figures being placed on both the lay and back sides of the market, I don't understand how the 'market volume increasing at peak amounts for the past 30 seconds' on it's own would help to determine whether the price is likely continue to come in or reverse and drift out?

Guess I'm missing something here...
Ged.. the volume is money matched, as each market is a closed loop it works to 100%, so if the volume % of money matched on one runner is increasing it means it's decreasing elsewhere..

Hope that helps
ged1200
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:40 pm

Hi Korattt, thanks for your response. I understand how the market works (book at 100%) and that volume is matched bets.

JollyGreen's example intentionally ignores any other runners and the only information we have (again, intentionally) is as described in the first post.

My query is how does the traded volume (which comprises of matched back and lay bets) for that one and only horse in the example help to determine whether or not the price is going to continue to come in or reverse and drift out? Without seeing the money being placed on the back and lay sides of the market (which we can't in the example) we don't know if the price is under pressure on the back or the lay side?
Bluesky
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:26 pm

ged1200 wrote: My query is how does the traded volume (which comprises of matched back and lay bets) for that one and only horse in the example help to determine whether or not the price is going to continue to come in or reverse and drift out? Without seeing the money being placed on the back and lay sides of the market (which we can't in the example) we don't know if the price is under pressure on the back or the lay side?
Your right JG hasn't provided this information, but I don't think you need it. He mentions the peak volume detail to show that the book is trading efficiently so you don't need to worry about a large imbalance.

What I think he is trying to explain here, is that when a fav has come steaming in, and unless there are very good reasons to oppose the fav (no such reasons were not provided) then the profitable play is to back the fav. Abstention is the next best option, and laying the poorest (stepping in front of a train etc.).

I think the purpose of the post was more about a mind set thing rather than actually reading the markets using technical indicators. He was trying to explain that lots of people when they see that a horse has come in a lot will start the what if type of thinking. They will say to themselves this horse has come in so much its likely to bounce back any minute I think I am going to lay it, because if I back it I think it will turn because it has moved so much it cant keep coming in.

If I have got the above wrong them I am sure JG or one of the other experienced traders on this forum will set me straight.
vhdgkl
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:26 am

ged1200 wrote:Hi Korattt, thanks for your response. I understand how the market works (book at 100%) and that volume is matched bets.

JollyGreen's example intentionally ignores any other runners and the only information we have (again, intentionally) is as described in the first post.

My query is how does the traded volume (which comprises of matched back and lay bets) for that one and only horse in the example help to determine whether or not the price is going to continue to come in or reverse and drift out? Without seeing the money being placed on the back and lay sides of the market (which we can't in the example) we don't know if the price is under pressure on the back or the lay side?
he said that because when you have ,in a trend,a peak volume for a "long period"(30''in this case) then the market is effeicient...for efficient he means that the market is hard to manipulate..and if the market is efficient and if the market is in trend then is more likely to continue
(because it's hard to manipultae)

back back back...peak volume extended time...why people change suddenly previous opinion?
it's possible if the market is not "efficient"(not many money in circulation)
ged1200
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:40 pm

Thanks for the replies. I was beginning to think that I was misunderstanding the traded volume but from what you have said, you appear to confirm that I'm not.

Cheers
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