Fiscal rules are changing in the Netherlands, and I'm thinking about setting up a limited company in the UK, as part of a company in the Netherlands. Through the limited I want to operate on betfair and betdaq (the latter I cannot do as a dutch citizen, but should be able to via a company registered in the UK). I read the corporation tax for small companies is 19%, but am not so sure about the gambling tax. At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_ ... d_taxation it's stated that corporations pay a 15% tax on gross profit. Is this instead of the 19% (or 30% for bigger companies), or do you first pay 15% and then 19% over what's left?
(PS: of course I'll seek professional guidance, but want to know as much as possible before I engage in these talks)
Tax question
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marksmeets302
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Surely corporations (like ladbrokes) pay taxes?you dont pay tax on gambling in the uk.
yeah of cause corporations and bookmakers pay tax, but not individual punters or traders (pro or amateur or saturady afternoon punters).
i assume your not a corporation or a bookmaker, so in principle i assume to avoid paying tax in your country you would need a uk address and a uk bank account, and hence (assuming you aquire both) as there is no tax on gambling winnings (or losses) in the uk, you would not have to pay any gambling tax levied in your country.
i assume your not a corporation or a bookmaker, so in principle i assume to avoid paying tax in your country you would need a uk address and a uk bank account, and hence (assuming you aquire both) as there is no tax on gambling winnings (or losses) in the uk, you would not have to pay any gambling tax levied in your country.
Last edited by to75ne on Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim22017.htm
"BIM22017 - Meaning of trade: exceptions and alternatives: betting and gambling - the professional gambler.
The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade."
The case of Graham v Green [1925]
This shows that having expertise or being systematic (‘studying form’) is not enough to create a trade of being a ‘professional gambler’.
Some ‘professional gamblers’ do carry on a trade, for example, where they receive appearance money for appearing on television programmes. They are providing a service to a customer (the television production company) for reward. Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts.
and this:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim22015.htm
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I read this on the HMRC (UK) website only a couple of weeks ago, although I imagine it is common knowledge to the vast majority of you. Nice to see it in print though. I'm not a legal professional, but I was interested nevertheless. Hope it helps.
"BIM22017 - Meaning of trade: exceptions and alternatives: betting and gambling - the professional gambler.
The fact that a taxpayer has a system by which they place their bets, or that they are sufficiently successful to earn a living by gambling does not make their activities a trade."
The case of Graham v Green [1925]
This shows that having expertise or being systematic (‘studying form’) is not enough to create a trade of being a ‘professional gambler’.
Some ‘professional gamblers’ do carry on a trade, for example, where they receive appearance money for appearing on television programmes. They are providing a service to a customer (the television production company) for reward. Whether their gambling winnings are proceeds of that trade would depend upon the facts.
and this:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim22015.htm
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I read this on the HMRC (UK) website only a couple of weeks ago, although I imagine it is common knowledge to the vast majority of you. Nice to see it in print though. I'm not a legal professional, but I was interested nevertheless. Hope it helps.
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marksmeets302
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:37 pm
Thanks for the info guys. To clarify ( to75ne) for now the only way I can create an account at betdaq is through a corporation with an address in the UK. Dutch people, amongst many others, are banned from entering by betdaq. On top of that, I pay 29% gambling tax in the Netherlands. If I can do this as a UK entity it would pay no gambling tax (going on your answers), but 19% corp. tax. How this will be distributed to the dutch corporation (where the tax rate is 20%) I'll leave up to an accountant.
I've thought about this one or two years ago as well, but didn't go through with it because I was busy enough already. Now I have more time, and it combines well with proposed changes in tax structure here.
Rufus, thanks for the links. Very informative. If anybody else has input: it will be very much appreciated.
I've thought about this one or two years ago as well, but didn't go through with it because I was busy enough already. Now I have more time, and it combines well with proposed changes in tax structure here.
Rufus, thanks for the links. Very informative. If anybody else has input: it will be very much appreciated.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
If you set up as a business in the UK you are likely to have other costs such as National Insurance costs?
Also won't you have to pay tax on the profits you withdraw from your business to yourself in the form of income tax or dividends?
If I were you and you are able to you should move to the UK and rent somewhere for a short period, open a basic bank account which offers no credit. The banks like to keep these hidden as they make nothing from them. Then open a Betdaq account etc and then move back home.
You only need visit the rented house once in a while and could ask someone to forward on your mail that is needed.
If you are making sufficient profits for all this to be worth your while I wouldn't want to be paying corporation tax etc. when there is no need.
Also won't you have to pay tax on the profits you withdraw from your business to yourself in the form of income tax or dividends?
If I were you and you are able to you should move to the UK and rent somewhere for a short period, open a basic bank account which offers no credit. The banks like to keep these hidden as they make nothing from them. Then open a Betdaq account etc and then move back home.
You only need visit the rented house once in a while and could ask someone to forward on your mail that is needed.
If you are making sufficient profits for all this to be worth your while I wouldn't want to be paying corporation tax etc. when there is no need.
I recently applied for a new mobile phone - I had previously held a PAYG
My application was declined. I bought a credit report worried that something dodgy had appeared, but found my credit score was 935 - this is supposedly very very good.
My application was rejected due to me being self-employed with no accounts due to not paying tax
I had totally overlooked how my job was going to destroy my reputation in the eyes of creditors, even though I have no debts!
My application was declined. I bought a credit report worried that something dodgy had appeared, but found my credit score was 935 - this is supposedly very very good.
My application was rejected due to me being self-employed with no accounts due to not paying tax
I had totally overlooked how my job was going to destroy my reputation in the eyes of creditors, even though I have no debts!
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andyfuller
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- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
There is no such things as a credit score, every business rates you according to their own circumstances so be wary of the 'scores' you get when you credit check.
It is very important to have debit in this day and age to avoid the type of issue you have run into. Make sure you have a credit card and use it regularly but then pay it off in full each month to avoid charges for example.
There are several other things you can do to build a credit profile but I am very surprised to hear that being self employed caused you not to be able to get a phone contract, I have never heard fo that one before.
When you say you have no accounts as you pay no tax, I assume you are still filing your self assessment each year?
It is very important to have debit in this day and age to avoid the type of issue you have run into. Make sure you have a credit card and use it regularly but then pay it off in full each month to avoid charges for example.
There are several other things you can do to build a credit profile but I am very surprised to hear that being self employed caused you not to be able to get a phone contract, I have never heard fo that one before.
When you say you have no accounts as you pay no tax, I assume you are still filing your self assessment each year?
I have been self employeed in one form or another for 20+ years now starting as a window cleaner when self employeed (as a sole trader or partnership) unless you have at least 3 years of certified accounts showing a healthy business throughout that time then its almost impossible to get any form of credit weather that be a mobile phone, car finance, credit card, loan and definetly a mortgage. That said if you turned from a sole trader into a limited company after paying yourself a salary for just 6 months with payslips etc you can apply for all the above just as if you where an employee for anyone else and be treated the same as your credit application now shows you as a MD of a company with proof of full time employment (even though your the owner of the company and technically still just self employeed).
For UK residents there is no tax to pay on gambling winnings (this was abolished when online bookies came about to prevent them moving there servers to offshore tax free havens) there is also no income tax to pay on profits relating from gambling which include Casions, bookies, poker and exchanges regardless of systems or stragtergies they are all seen as gambling in one form or another by UK goverment.
That said as a non-UK resident if you set up a company with registered offices in the UK and said companys sole purpose is to profit on the exchanges i would imagine that there is some loop hole that would require you to still pay corporation tax on profits regardless of the above.
For UK residents there is no tax to pay on gambling winnings (this was abolished when online bookies came about to prevent them moving there servers to offshore tax free havens) there is also no income tax to pay on profits relating from gambling which include Casions, bookies, poker and exchanges regardless of systems or stragtergies they are all seen as gambling in one form or another by UK goverment.
That said as a non-UK resident if you set up a company with registered offices in the UK and said companys sole purpose is to profit on the exchanges i would imagine that there is some loop hole that would require you to still pay corporation tax on profits regardless of the above.
No, I haven't filled in a self-assessment form for 6 years. I filled one in the first year I went self-employed as a trader, but the following year HMRC told me not to bother, as I wasn't officially self-employed due to my line of workandyfuller wrote: When you say you have no accounts as you pay no tax, I assume you are still filing your self assessment each year?
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marksmeets302
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- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:37 pm
Thanks again for the replies. I have no idea how the additional taxes in your country work, like the national insurance costs Andy mentioned. I feel I should take this up with the guys from ING now. I've got until the end of the year to prepare all this, should be okay.
Moving to the UK, as some have mentioned is not viable for me. Still have kids at school, don't want to pull them away from their friends just because daddy wants to save a few euros. Aside from that, having the company is what makes it interesting to lower other taxes in the netherlands. If it was just for being able to save a couple percent on my betfair profits I don't think I'd bother.
That's a remarkable story LeTiss. And I envy you for not having to pay taxes
(Actually I don't mind paying a bit of taxes, just wish I had more control over how it was spend). I thought the UK had a capital gains tax as well?
Moving to the UK, as some have mentioned is not viable for me. Still have kids at school, don't want to pull them away from their friends just because daddy wants to save a few euros. Aside from that, having the company is what makes it interesting to lower other taxes in the netherlands. If it was just for being able to save a couple percent on my betfair profits I don't think I'd bother.
That's a remarkable story LeTiss. And I envy you for not having to pay taxes
(Actually I don't mind paying a bit of taxes, just wish I had more control over how it was spend). I thought the UK had a capital gains tax as well?https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax/what-you-pay-it-onmarksmeets302 wrote: I thought the UK had a capital gains tax as well?
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andyfuller
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when you said previously that you were self employed I took it that you were actually self employed.LeTiss 4pm wrote:No, I haven't filled in a self-assessment form for 6 years. I filled one in the first year I went self-employed as a trader, but the following year HMRC told me not to bother, as I wasn't officially self-employed due to my line of work
I didn't realise you meant you were a full time trader and classed yourself as self employed. As you rightly say if trading is what you do to make a living you have no need for paying tax or doing self assessment (assuming you don't have a need due to other reasons, e.g. rental income).
But you are not technically self employed from a taxation view point. So it is not that you are self employed that caused you issues with your mobile phone, as you are not self employed.
Do you have a history of credit LeTiss - seems odd that you are struggling to get a monthly phone deal.