Well done - a technique someone once wrote about on their blog when getting frustrated, or having a loss was to walk away from the PC and make a cup of tea and have it with a biscuit.
This gives you the time to relax and reframe your mindset and avoid making a stupid loss or compounding one.
Often doing nothing can be far better for your bank than doing something. Just don't do what I did once in my very early days - go for a walk around the garden after a loss forgetting to check if I had any open positions on upcoming races. I did, I had laid the eventual winner.
Needless to say I came back from the walk in a much worse mood than when I left!
Appears simple but is devilishly difficult.
Nah I think the title is spot on, a lot of people get baited into it thinking it's easy, that's the message you get from watching most of the videos on Youtube.Lammtarra wrote:I wish I could change the title Marko because it is a stupid title, I can only put it down to a "moment of madness" when I originally posted it
I've lost count of the number times over the last 12 months where doing nothing was the way to go but I chose to risk my bank for a fiver or something equally stupid.
Doing nothing is something I am going to work at because I'd have saved a lot of money if I'd just took the hit and stopped.
I run my own carpet shop and can trade when I want to but sometimes encounter problems when I'm in a trade and a customer walks in. I've had it before where I'm talking to a customer who is stood behind my monitor and I'm in the middle of a trade and rather than close out, I "take a chance" (I should put that on my grave stone) and see what happens. My favorite one is dealing with a customer and walking away from my monitor with a trade on the go. Sometimes I come back and have a nice surprise, other times I want to smash up the monitor
I couldn't even call that a mistake it's just a very sloppy, carefree attitude towards trading, strange how I suddenly "care" when I've done my money......
In my "new life" I'm cutting all this crap out because as mugs says, it really is sabotage.
Doing nothing is something I am going to work at because I'd have saved a lot of money if I'd just took the hit and stopped.
I run my own carpet shop and can trade when I want to but sometimes encounter problems when I'm in a trade and a customer walks in. I've had it before where I'm talking to a customer who is stood behind my monitor and I'm in the middle of a trade and rather than close out, I "take a chance" (I should put that on my grave stone) and see what happens. My favorite one is dealing with a customer and walking away from my monitor with a trade on the go. Sometimes I come back and have a nice surprise, other times I want to smash up the monitor
I couldn't even call that a mistake it's just a very sloppy, carefree attitude towards trading, strange how I suddenly "care" when I've done my money......In my "new life" I'm cutting all this crap out because as mugs says, it really is sabotage.
Yep, not having any position is a position. You really must stay within the limits of your strategies and your skillset, if you continually venture outside of those limits then it's inevitable that you will only get a mixed bag of results.Lammtarra wrote:Doing nothing is something I am going to work at because I'd have saved a lot of money if I'd just took the hit and stopped.
But don't be afraid to take losses, there is nothing wrong with taking an acceptable loss. Properly managing losses can make a massive difference at the end of the day. You should place your "stoploss" at a point that, if reached, will reasonably indicate that the trade is wrong, and not at a point determined primarily by the maximum amount of money you are willing to lose. It's a simple concept but difficult to master, a lot of people struggle with losses simply because they often turn acceptable losses into massive ones. You can still feel good about taking a loss, if you've handled it in the correct manner.
Wow one of my friends used to do the exact same thing on his day job, sounds like you need to completely revamp your approach towards money, risk and trading. In all honesty you can only expect serious results if you have a serious approach, anything less than that and the markets will eat you alive.Lammtarra wrote:My favorite one is dealing with a customer and walking away from my monitor with a trade on the go. Sometimes I come back and have a nice surprise, other times I want to smash up the monitor
From your posts I still think you're putting way too much emphasis on money in general, there's not much point thinking about making money if you're not yet mentally and technically ready to make money. I see it all the time in my circle of friends, I think that approach is just plain wrong. What you're effectively trying to do is both grow your bank AND learn how to trade at the same time, you're just making it much harder that it has to be. The odds are heavily stacked against you with that approach, trading should be perceived as an exciting no-risk source of income and not a very expensive and stressful hobby.
Your focus should be entirely on learning and trying not to lose any (serious) money while you learn. Yeah it's been said to death but you really don't NEED to risk any money during that learning process. I really think it's quite simple in the end, if you're not yet ready to make money then don't deposit and risk any money in the first place, otherwise there's a very high chance that you'll lose it. I know that's easier said than done but you simply have to properly manage your bank and your expectations.
Hi Kai, I'd never thought of it as that but that's exactly what I'm trying to do I suppose - win and learn at the same time.
I did alright yesterday but I do something that I'm sure is wrong and risks too much......it isn't going in-play and it isn't chasing losses, it's where you click multiple stakes lower down the ladder expecting the price to shorten and then move out again. I don't know what that's called but when I glance my eye down the ladder below my entry points, the potential losses are much bigger obviously and it can get a bit worrying. Yesterday the one race I did this on worked to plan because I enter my exit points at the same time as my entry points so I have multiple exit points up the ladder and as the price hits them, my green line moves lower and lower which is a joy to see.
I assume when all said and done, it's just poor money management because I have too much of my bank invested into the market but I seriously think I could work on this as a strategy if the race meets my idea of what is suitable and what else is happening in the market to the other horses.
The real flaw from what I can see is that you have very little wiggle room if all you're entry points are took. There's always that deep down worry that the price will go down, down, down and keep going down which will lead to either a) a loss that is painful to take or b) the good old chestnut of going in-play which I should NEVER do again.
My ultimate goal of course, is to not feel "worry" about what might happen in the market, just respond accordingly within my strategy.
As a side note, I'm not going to do this because I haven't got the bank for it really or the mental conviction to see it through but I think that laying Arsenal for the title and backing Chelsea for the title would make a good trade? I think Arsenal will, later in the season, blow it (as usual) and Chelsea I think will improve considerably but fail to win the title. Arsenal are 11/4, Chelsea are 22/1.
I only mention it because if I put the work in and want to become a sports trader, this is something that I would do. Not so sure about Arsenal but I could easily see Chelsea, after 3 wins being 8s or so then I would trade out.
I did alright yesterday but I do something that I'm sure is wrong and risks too much......it isn't going in-play and it isn't chasing losses, it's where you click multiple stakes lower down the ladder expecting the price to shorten and then move out again. I don't know what that's called but when I glance my eye down the ladder below my entry points, the potential losses are much bigger obviously and it can get a bit worrying. Yesterday the one race I did this on worked to plan because I enter my exit points at the same time as my entry points so I have multiple exit points up the ladder and as the price hits them, my green line moves lower and lower which is a joy to see.
I assume when all said and done, it's just poor money management because I have too much of my bank invested into the market but I seriously think I could work on this as a strategy if the race meets my idea of what is suitable and what else is happening in the market to the other horses.
The real flaw from what I can see is that you have very little wiggle room if all you're entry points are took. There's always that deep down worry that the price will go down, down, down and keep going down which will lead to either a) a loss that is painful to take or b) the good old chestnut of going in-play which I should NEVER do again.
My ultimate goal of course, is to not feel "worry" about what might happen in the market, just respond accordingly within my strategy.
As a side note, I'm not going to do this because I haven't got the bank for it really or the mental conviction to see it through but I think that laying Arsenal for the title and backing Chelsea for the title would make a good trade? I think Arsenal will, later in the season, blow it (as usual) and Chelsea I think will improve considerably but fail to win the title. Arsenal are 11/4, Chelsea are 22/1.
I only mention it because if I put the work in and want to become a sports trader, this is something that I would do. Not so sure about Arsenal but I could easily see Chelsea, after 3 wins being 8s or so then I would trade out.
I think my first response on this thread was to you was asking the style of trading you do, When you enter multiple orders above and/or below current price basically your placing speculative orders and waiting for the price to come to you this is all well and good for experienced traders who do this based on some form on information/judgement and they will have a clear defined plan in the head what they will do as the orders are taken and how they are going to manage there position as it unfolds - they are not so much doing it randomly on any horse at any random time like some you tube vids make it look.
Ask yourself this are you genuinely just placing orders above & below a price at random then waiting to see what happens and then trying to deal with the situation as it develops??
If the answer is yes your basically gambling with random trades
You should always have a clear plan in your head of what you think is going to happen, why its going to happen and at what point it will become obvious your wrong and therefore have to take a loss and move on to the next trade.
Try doing it this way (lets say you have been using £2 stakes and placing 5-6 in the market speculatively at a time) instead use a single £20 stake.
Watch the market during the final few minutes (usually from around 7mins) and try to spot a overall medium/long term direction of a price when your confident you have spotted one just before entering you should have a mental note of where your going to allow the price to go against you before taking a loss AND STICK TO IT. once your in the trade and providing its moving into profit you can then just sit back and manage your position and close when you feel the move is at a end or about to reverse. once you have closed out either profit or loss reassess the whole market and decide if there is another opportunity, some races you will just not see anything concrete happening in which case DONT do anything just wait for the next - better to trade just 2-3 races a day and be profitable in each than trying to do something every race just for the sake of it, if nothing else its a mental confidence boost.
Ask yourself this are you genuinely just placing orders above & below a price at random then waiting to see what happens and then trying to deal with the situation as it develops??
If the answer is yes your basically gambling with random trades
You should always have a clear plan in your head of what you think is going to happen, why its going to happen and at what point it will become obvious your wrong and therefore have to take a loss and move on to the next trade.
Try doing it this way (lets say you have been using £2 stakes and placing 5-6 in the market speculatively at a time) instead use a single £20 stake.
Watch the market during the final few minutes (usually from around 7mins) and try to spot a overall medium/long term direction of a price when your confident you have spotted one just before entering you should have a mental note of where your going to allow the price to go against you before taking a loss AND STICK TO IT. once your in the trade and providing its moving into profit you can then just sit back and manage your position and close when you feel the move is at a end or about to reverse. once you have closed out either profit or loss reassess the whole market and decide if there is another opportunity, some races you will just not see anything concrete happening in which case DONT do anything just wait for the next - better to trade just 2-3 races a day and be profitable in each than trying to do something every race just for the sake of it, if nothing else its a mental confidence boost.
Thanks for that Dallas it all makes sense and I get what your saying.
I'd like to think that I'm not trading at random because there is some thought as to what makes me enter the trade in the first place. For instance yesterday the favorite was about 2.2ish and was going up 8 ticks and down 4 repeatedly so overall it was drifting to about 2.6ish. I took a view that it would shorten back to about 2.4-2.36 and then go back out to 2.6.
I don't need to worry about giving away any trade secrets because anybody that follows what I say deserves all they get
The problem is that when I'm right like yesterday, I don't know why I'm right. That is a big, big problem because I almost feel that if that happened 100 times and you asked me "why did that happen?" I don't really know and wouldn't really know.
That's a good idea though about the staking, today for something different, I'll double my stake from £7.22 to £14.44 but only 1 stake and with a stop loss related to the price BEFORE I enter the trade rather than how much I'm prepared to lose.
I'll sit here this afternoon and might miss many races out which I never do because I normally "have a little dabble"
I know you're probably cringing reading this but I won't be able to iron these flaws out if I don't confront them.
Whatever happens today, I'll post my actual results on here tomorrow and we'll see how I get on.
I'd like to think that I'm not trading at random because there is some thought as to what makes me enter the trade in the first place. For instance yesterday the favorite was about 2.2ish and was going up 8 ticks and down 4 repeatedly so overall it was drifting to about 2.6ish. I took a view that it would shorten back to about 2.4-2.36 and then go back out to 2.6.
I don't need to worry about giving away any trade secrets because anybody that follows what I say deserves all they get
The problem is that when I'm right like yesterday, I don't know why I'm right. That is a big, big problem because I almost feel that if that happened 100 times and you asked me "why did that happen?" I don't really know and wouldn't really know.
That's a good idea though about the staking, today for something different, I'll double my stake from £7.22 to £14.44 but only 1 stake and with a stop loss related to the price BEFORE I enter the trade rather than how much I'm prepared to lose.
I'll sit here this afternoon and might miss many races out which I never do because I normally "have a little dabble"
I know you're probably cringing reading this but I won't be able to iron these flaws out if I don't confront them. Whatever happens today, I'll post my actual results on here tomorrow and we'll see how I get on.
Had a really busy day at work for all the wrong reasons, i.e dealing with s*** all day and was trying to trade in-between which is yet another flaw to iron out no doubt.
I done the 1 stake thing and was really looking forward to trying it but rightly or wrongly didn't feel comfortable doing it on 5s or bigger. A lot of the racing when I looked yesterday seemed to have big priced favorites so to cut a long story short, I dipped my toe in and trod very carefully.
My actual results were:
Scratch
Scratch
+ 0.03
- 0.77
+ 1.18
Total profit for the day - £0.44 but more imprtantly, I didn't lose
I'll try it again today and see how I get on....
I done the 1 stake thing and was really looking forward to trying it but rightly or wrongly didn't feel comfortable doing it on 5s or bigger. A lot of the racing when I looked yesterday seemed to have big priced favorites so to cut a long story short, I dipped my toe in and trod very carefully.
My actual results were:
Scratch
Scratch
+ 0.03
- 0.77
+ 1.18
Total profit for the day - £0.44 but more imprtantly, I didn't lose
I'll try it again today and see how I get on....TBH yesterday was not a good day in general IMO, there never seemed to be a soild trend with anything at best most just seemed to bounce in a 10-15 tick range in final few minutes, i always look at the lower priced runners anyway especially those under 3s (increments are less but moves are bigger which is what i prefere and look for) but the main thing is to stay within your own comfort zone outside of that and emotions/fear & greed take control your decisions.
All said though with only one losing trade out of 5 is a positive step, as i have previously said keep the losses controlled and the profits will build.
All said though with only one losing trade out of 5 is a positive step, as i have previously said keep the losses controlled and the profits will build.
Yeah I've learned that the hard way and now I need to implement it into my trading.
I kept asking myself why was I entering this trade? If I really haven't got a clue what I think will happen then don't enter the trade.
There were several occasions where I was just going to enter and thought nah, leave it. So I did....
As Kai said the other day, not having a position in the market, IS a position and sometimes I find it actually quite difficult to not enter a trade.
I kept asking myself why was I entering this trade? If I really haven't got a clue what I think will happen then don't enter the trade.
There were several occasions where I was just going to enter and thought nah, leave it. So I did....
As Kai said the other day, not having a position in the market, IS a position and sometimes I find it actually quite difficult to not enter a trade.
Have you started analyzing your trades afterwards? I would really recommend you start recording the market, you could use the time inbetween customers to analyze them and make notes on what you did wrong etc. It is so much easier to spot potential opportunities and patterns when you're not involved in a trade, it's like having an extra pair of eyes. I honestly think that's where the real work starts, everything you do up to that point is just messing about in my book.
That kind of an approach was a game changer for a lot of traders, myself included. If you don't bring any sort of analysis into your work then it could take ages to progress to a decent level, that's just way too slow for me, especially if you're trading a small number of races each day. You're going to need bigger samples than 5 races to see how you're getting along.
That kind of an approach was a game changer for a lot of traders, myself included. If you don't bring any sort of analysis into your work then it could take ages to progress to a decent level, that's just way too slow for me, especially if you're trading a small number of races each day. You're going to need bigger samples than 5 races to see how you're getting along.
Hi Kai, no I haven't done anything yet about analyzing my trades and I know it is something that is essential and must be done I just haven't done anything because I haven't got a clue what is needed and how you record your screens.
I'm sure if I done a bit of research on it I'd soon find what was needed so no excuses, I just haven't done it yet.
Update from yesterday.
My actual trades were:
0.13
0.75
-1.67
1.39
0.23
1.40
0.80
scratch
Was really kicking myself though because one of the trades I took a red screen then re-entered and turned it green but my original idea proved correct and had I just held my nerve, I'd have won £2.20. I didn't get mad though just congratulated myself for reading it right originally.
Really pleased with the day though because it proved that (not that I need confirmation) that if you don't let losses get out of control, you will post a profit.
There were a few times that I might have gone in heavy or chased the price out and just lost control but I accepted the red with a view to re-enter and try and turn it green.
I'm sure if I done a bit of research on it I'd soon find what was needed so no excuses, I just haven't done it yet.
Update from yesterday.
My actual trades were:
0.13
0.75
-1.67
1.39
0.23
1.40
0.80
scratch
Was really kicking myself though because one of the trades I took a red screen then re-entered and turned it green but my original idea proved correct and had I just held my nerve, I'd have won £2.20. I didn't get mad though just congratulated myself for reading it right originally.
Really pleased with the day though because it proved that (not that I need confirmation) that if you don't let losses get out of control, you will post a profit.
There were a few times that I might have gone in heavy or chased the price out and just lost control but I accepted the red with a view to re-enter and try and turn it green.
Lammtarra from the start of the thread a year or so ago, it seems to me you have not gone forward a single inch.
not wishing to sound like a nasty barsteward i don't believe you will as you don't appear to have the discipline needed to trade.
trading is hard enough without making it harder by doing something else completely different at the same time. so why are you trying to trade and sell carpets at the same time?
if your gonna trade then trade, if your going to sell carpets then sell carpets. don't do both at the same time, you certainly do not have the ability to trade successfully let alone trading while doing something else.
if you cant take the time off from your business to trade then don't trade concentrate on what is important, i assume your business. only trade when you have the time to do so.
there are thousands of horse races in the uk and ireland each year; so why needlessly put yourself under pressure by trying to learn to trade while dividing your attention and concentration with something else?
discipline is a about a lot more than not going inplay unintentionally.
not wishing to sound like a nasty barsteward i don't believe you will as you don't appear to have the discipline needed to trade.
trading is hard enough without making it harder by doing something else completely different at the same time. so why are you trying to trade and sell carpets at the same time?
if your gonna trade then trade, if your going to sell carpets then sell carpets. don't do both at the same time, you certainly do not have the ability to trade successfully let alone trading while doing something else.
if you cant take the time off from your business to trade then don't trade concentrate on what is important, i assume your business. only trade when you have the time to do so.
there are thousands of horse races in the uk and ireland each year; so why needlessly put yourself under pressure by trying to learn to trade while dividing your attention and concentration with something else?
discipline is a about a lot more than not going inplay unintentionally.
Thanks for your contribution to75ne.
Fair comment really, I can't argue with what you've said as I haven't tried hard enough, simple as that.
The only area where I do disagree is with the business and trading. I am not able to not earn an income and go trading when I'm not even capable of trading properly. So following your advice, I'd stay in the shop and never trade. Rightly or wrongly, that isn't going to happen.
Other than that, yeah I agree with what your saying. As I've golder, I've become very emotional and this makes me question whether I'm just the wrong type of person to be trading in the first place?
I'm going to carry on as I am at the moment because even though I've only been on here a few weeks (this time round) it feels to me like I've learned a whole lot more already thanks to various posters.
My goal now is to prove you wrong.......
Fair comment really, I can't argue with what you've said as I haven't tried hard enough, simple as that.
The only area where I do disagree is with the business and trading. I am not able to not earn an income and go trading when I'm not even capable of trading properly. So following your advice, I'd stay in the shop and never trade. Rightly or wrongly, that isn't going to happen.
Other than that, yeah I agree with what your saying. As I've golder, I've become very emotional and this makes me question whether I'm just the wrong type of person to be trading in the first place?
I'm going to carry on as I am at the moment because even though I've only been on here a few weeks (this time round) it feels to me like I've learned a whole lot more already thanks to various posters.
My goal now is to prove you wrong.......
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Sorry - I haven't read the whole thread but have the last few pages.
Can I ask is the carpet business your own?
What is your aim from trading?
Can I ask is the carpet business your own?
What is your aim from trading?