Hi Jeff - it would happen pretty much all the time, though no doubt he was more profitable in trending markets as more day traders would be getting involved. But there was often times when you wondered if he created the trend when nothing was happening - the link below alludes to this also.
In a quiet / sideways market with not much activity you either played the flipper or you learnt to sit still, read a book or something. Commissions on trades were 50p, & it was easy to trade 2000 lotts by midday - & if you scratched every position thats a £-1k loss - in a nothing market.
It used to be possible to nick 1 or 2 ticks in quiet periods, but that went out the window. Discipline was key - only trade when somethings happening, never force trades etc. I trade futures using charts now - & bit more long term, & I wish I used them when i was day trading as if these guys were using resistance / support levels then you could use it your advantage i.e. you would be putting orders in at these levels just as a few horse race traders have mentioned here.
This is where i got the flipper quote from, he explains it bit better...
http://www.nobsdaytrading.com/
Market manipulation
Per my prev post:
...It used to be possible to nick 1 or 2 ticks in quiet periods, but that went out the window
Saying that, I went & visited the trading house again with a view of getting back in it, the flipper had gone & the markets were as fruitful as when I started. There were cheap ticks to be had in quiet times & some easy swings to get on the back of when moves started.
Just seems similar with you guys, some may need to change your methods & strategies, learn to trade other markets also, or if your big enough perhaps play with them as bet angel (Peter?) has done, or dont trade at all.
Continuing status quo though imo wont work.
I liked the idea of few traders pooling your banks together - if you were all on skype, cld blow out a few of these smaller manipulators / spoofers for good - a sort of virtual market vigilante gang.
...It used to be possible to nick 1 or 2 ticks in quiet periods, but that went out the window
Saying that, I went & visited the trading house again with a view of getting back in it, the flipper had gone & the markets were as fruitful as when I started. There were cheap ticks to be had in quiet times & some easy swings to get on the back of when moves started.
Just seems similar with you guys, some may need to change your methods & strategies, learn to trade other markets also, or if your big enough perhaps play with them as bet angel (Peter?) has done, or dont trade at all.
Continuing status quo though imo wont work.
I liked the idea of few traders pooling your banks together - if you were all on skype, cld blow out a few of these smaller manipulators / spoofers for good - a sort of virtual market vigilante gang.
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enzabella2009
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm
I have my self some very fascinating infos how those big punters manipulate the weight of money and why they do it and whom in particular they are targetting. they are All theorys of course which, people can agree or disagree. I have been passed, while ago, a paper from a friend of mine that is working in the statistics department in florence an approximate estimation of how much money could be traded over betfair. The figure was around 75% of the money (BA may disagree with that figure). To attarct more money betfair need more liquidity running recycled over the next markets. I have lately red some articles over some finacial papers and many of them probably enlightened me even more about who is behind all this market manipulation. The answear could be here:
Eurex dispatched its global head of fixed income product design, Ralf Danielski, to London when complaints were voiced, and sources say Eurex has contacted the Flipper. But while small traders are still calling for his head, the exchange has ruled his trading also is a legitimate modus operandi that creates liquidity.
nice article rascal01
Eurex dispatched its global head of fixed income product design, Ralf Danielski, to London when complaints were voiced, and sources say Eurex has contacted the Flipper. But while small traders are still calling for his head, the exchange has ruled his trading also is a legitimate modus operandi that creates liquidity.
nice article rascal01
It's amazing how quick people follow money
I placed a £2000 bet on Verdasco an hour ago, within 20 secs another £2500 followed in behind me
Coincidence?
Not at all, it happens quite often - if you're confident the market will tip your way, it's quite easy to instigate a price movement
I placed a £2000 bet on Verdasco an hour ago, within 20 secs another £2500 followed in behind me
Coincidence?
Not at all, it happens quite often - if you're confident the market will tip your way, it's quite easy to instigate a price movement
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enzabella2009
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm
I have just remembered something I did not think before. In 2005 my ex-boyfriend ( johnmalk02)financed our new adventure into gambling . we only started to trade around end of 2006. In 2007 he recieved a call from BETFAIR offering him a deal. Our bankroll was big so BETFAIR suggested my ex-boyfriend to use some of his bankroll over BETFAIR POKER in the exchange of 85% rake back paid on his account every monday.My boyfriend agreed but he wanted 100% rake back on all hands he was involved until the river for the 1st 6 months and 85% after that . BETFAIR accepted. He had to open several tables on every possible LIMITS and sometimes allowing him multiple accounts to fill up tables. we broke up soon after for some other reasons. He left me a nice bankroll to carry on my self. I have been contacted by him few months ago ( i m not longer in UK. he found me on FACEBOOK ) to find out that he made so much money over that betfair deal. He moved to new york when the deal was over to begum full time financial trader..I have almost forgot about that deal.
Hi Rascal01
Was that because the trading range was too narrow for you to simply place orders on both sides of the book and wait for them to get filled?
jeff
Was that because the trading range was too narrow for you to simply place orders on both sides of the book and wait for them to get filled?
jeff
rascal01 wrote:
In a quiet / sideways market with not much activity you either played the flipper or you learnt to sit still, read a book or something. Commissions on trades were 50p, & it was easy to trade 2000 lotts by midday - & if you scratched every position thats a £-1k loss - in a nothing market.
Kind of, the ranges were often tight but if you hadnt watched the markets & just saw the end of day charts you would have thought it was a perfect day to trade -the reality was it was just the shatz person in the markets & he was waiting for you to get involved...you could leave orders in but he would go through them in one & leave you couple of ticks offside. often you would get filled in a great queue on the euribor & just about to sell the schatz for the hedge & he would flip bid to offer, so you would now hedge for one tick less or scratch, but wait a minute.....then the euribor would also get hammered, so would be long outright & offside with the option of hedging & spending the next 4 hours getting out of it or scratching for a loss there & then. Often a terrible way to start a day. So that ended queueing strategy for a lot of people & trading for many others. Felt sorry for the grads just starting - they had it tough.
i can remember when first started - only a year before, there were so many free ticks from queuing dilligently or even just riding a 3 tick move, but it dried up completely. not sure what its like now to queue.
Not sure if this will ever be the case for you pre race traders, but i am sure you must have seen that the market looks either fishy, or dead....so leave it alone.
A lot of traders just ended up trading over figures, or on known busy periods e.g. the open etc. they would increase size & reduce frequency of trades - something which may be hard in these markets.
i can remember when first started - only a year before, there were so many free ticks from queuing dilligently or even just riding a 3 tick move, but it dried up completely. not sure what its like now to queue.
Not sure if this will ever be the case for you pre race traders, but i am sure you must have seen that the market looks either fishy, or dead....so leave it alone.
A lot of traders just ended up trading over figures, or on known busy periods e.g. the open etc. they would increase size & reduce frequency of trades - something which may be hard in these markets.
I am really enjoying this thread (and the Crazy Spike thread too) - thanks for letting me see what's going on and thanks rascal01 for a City traders insight and enzabella2009 your story seems fascinating too.
As the market is evolving The Hustlers are getting ever more sophisticated. I always assume Betfair would be making the market somehow, bookies and Sports trading companies are in on the action too and I always thought that the BetAngel professionals would have created their own Wolf Pack too (its natural evolution) and be manipulating the market too.
After all a slice of a really big cake is much better than 100% of a really small cake.
I find it fascinating - even if the market wolves have riped me to shreds - I keep coming back for more.
As the market is evolving The Hustlers are getting ever more sophisticated. I always assume Betfair would be making the market somehow, bookies and Sports trading companies are in on the action too and I always thought that the BetAngel professionals would have created their own Wolf Pack too (its natural evolution) and be manipulating the market too.
After all a slice of a really big cake is much better than 100% of a really small cake.
I find it fascinating - even if the market wolves have riped me to shreds - I keep coming back for more.
I think the market is always going to be changing as it evolves. New strategies come to the fore and old ones slip quietly into the background.
Maybe some of the more experianced traders can comment on whether they have had to change to adapt over the years?
Maybe some of the more experianced traders can comment on whether they have had to change to adapt over the years?
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cybernet69
If you look at Poker sites, then I would say around 80% are being run by BOTS. Often, these are run by the Poker sites themselves.
I lost count of how many times I joined a full table and within 10 seconds 3 or more participants would sit out until I left the table.
Use to find it very odd but then I read an article about collusion between BOTS and real players to influence the outcome of winning hands.
Think I remember a well known case several years back where around 20 individuals were colluding on 3 tables via Skype to increase there chances of winning.
These days it would be very easy to build a system to automatically share information and hand strength between BOT's.
I lost count of how many times I joined a full table and within 10 seconds 3 or more participants would sit out until I left the table.
Use to find it very odd but then I read an article about collusion between BOTS and real players to influence the outcome of winning hands.
Think I remember a well known case several years back where around 20 individuals were colluding on 3 tables via Skype to increase there chances of winning.
These days it would be very easy to build a system to automatically share information and hand strength between BOT's.