Your weakness is the weakness which has destroyed many traders, both sporting and financial
It's clearly in human nature to refuse locking yourself out for a loss
Most people can study form, open a spreadsheet, analyse the data, understand the concepts of trading and the software, BUT...........when they are faced with a red screen it seems to royally fuck so many people
Appears simple but is devilishly difficult.
Other than nod my head in agreement, there aint a lot I can say is there? I'm working on the "taking a small loss" thing and thats why I'll continue on this path until at least the end of the month.
Yesterday went OK, I won about £6 which I was chuffed with but need to stay disciplined with the staking. I have not let any trade get out of hand and certainly not in-play but my finger gets a bit liberal on the staking front and whilst I posted a profit, I know that needs serious control because it could have been different.
Yesterday went OK, I won about £6 which I was chuffed with but need to stay disciplined with the staking. I have not let any trade get out of hand and certainly not in-play but my finger gets a bit liberal on the staking front and whilst I posted a profit, I know that needs serious control because it could have been different.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Did you see my post at the end of the previous page?
Sorry Andy no I didn't, my fault.
The carpet business is my own. I left a well paid corporate job in carpet wholesale to go it alone as I don't like working for people.
My "trading dream" is to be financially free, nothing more, nothing less. To be in a position where I can earn a good income, work from home, live wherever I want to live - you get the idea......
In descending order it would be
1) Get out of the carpet business - trade full time.
2) Stay in carpets but supplement my income.
3) Win a few quid (£100 per week)
4) Win £50 per week consistently
5) Don't lose money.
Bit of a worry when I'm not truly off level 5 yet
There's obviously a bit more to me than that but that's the gist of it.
I'd love to be able to map out my day based around trades but initially get to grips with the basics.
The carpet business is my own. I left a well paid corporate job in carpet wholesale to go it alone as I don't like working for people.
My "trading dream" is to be financially free, nothing more, nothing less. To be in a position where I can earn a good income, work from home, live wherever I want to live - you get the idea......
In descending order it would be
1) Get out of the carpet business - trade full time.
2) Stay in carpets but supplement my income.
3) Win a few quid (£100 per week)
4) Win £50 per week consistently
5) Don't lose money.
Bit of a worry when I'm not truly off level 5 yet
There's obviously a bit more to me than that but that's the gist of it.
I'd love to be able to map out my day based around trades but initially get to grips with the basics.
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marksmeets302
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:37 pm
Maybe you should try automation. This will
a) provide you with an income next to your carpeting business; you don't have to divide your time. Just make sure you improve your strategies based upon the logs.
b) detach you emotionally.
a) provide you with an income next to your carpeting business; you don't have to divide your time. Just make sure you improve your strategies based upon the logs.
b) detach you emotionally.
I have thought of automation but decided against that because I don't have a profitable strategy. I think at the moment, automation would only help me lose money quicker. It is something I do want to get into but I have so many things I want to do/learn I'm going to stick at manual trading for the moment.
When I'm comfortable that I no longer lose money, understand thoroughly how the markets work and am in control of what I'm doing when trading, I'll move onto additional things like automation.
I've been into racing all my life but after Denman won the gold cup in 08, I started coming up with what I thought were strategies and dry running them.
I look back now and cringe at the thousands of man hours I have put into it when really, had I known about this forum then, most of you on here would have dismissed many of them out of hand and had I listened, would have not had to do it all. It's not so much all the time I put into it but the fact that I was "barking up the wrong tree" all along and now when something like automation comes up and thinking about sensible strategies, I instantly think that it's a waste of time......
It is amazing though when you have enough data, what can happen. I have done everything from laying favorites, backing favorites, laying dual winners, backing odds ons
Laying tipsters horses and many more. I wouldn't have believed it possible that you could go 10 odds on shots in a row beaten, wtf?
That's just what I've seen in the 3 years or so I was doing this, there must be people on here who've been round the block and seen some really mental things.
I found out that I can turn into Tom Segal when I come to laying favorites, they go in like clockwork when I'm on the wrong side of them.
Also I found that some of my plans could go months being profitable and would convince me they are viable so I would start using real money and surprise surprise, CRASH. Same old same old.........
I'll stick to my trading for the time being and hopefully add different things later.
When I'm comfortable that I no longer lose money, understand thoroughly how the markets work and am in control of what I'm doing when trading, I'll move onto additional things like automation.
I've been into racing all my life but after Denman won the gold cup in 08, I started coming up with what I thought were strategies and dry running them.
I look back now and cringe at the thousands of man hours I have put into it when really, had I known about this forum then, most of you on here would have dismissed many of them out of hand and had I listened, would have not had to do it all. It's not so much all the time I put into it but the fact that I was "barking up the wrong tree" all along and now when something like automation comes up and thinking about sensible strategies, I instantly think that it's a waste of time......
It is amazing though when you have enough data, what can happen. I have done everything from laying favorites, backing favorites, laying dual winners, backing odds ons
Laying tipsters horses and many more. I wouldn't have believed it possible that you could go 10 odds on shots in a row beaten, wtf?That's just what I've seen in the 3 years or so I was doing this, there must be people on here who've been round the block and seen some really mental things.
I found out that I can turn into Tom Segal when I come to laying favorites, they go in like clockwork when I'm on the wrong side of them.
Also I found that some of my plans could go months being profitable and would convince me they are viable so I would start using real money and surprise surprise, CRASH. Same old same old.........
I'll stick to my trading for the time being and hopefully add different things later.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
The reason I asked about your business and what you want from trading was to try and get you to think about is trading actually right for you.
If you do get successful at trading you are, with all things remaining the same, going to have to start paying the Premium Charge unless your total charges are too high. When starting out people see this as a good problem to have but it is a real problem and needs thought before you commit to thousands of hours trying to trade.
The biggest investment in life you will make is your time. So think very long and hard about how you think those thousands of hours are going to be invested.
There is a very good chance that you would be far better off in the long term investing that time in your business. If you can grow your business you can become financially free that way. You could in time have staff that do all the work and you semi retire for example.
I would just really recommend that you think long and hard about what it is you are looking to achieve from this and do not do it with rose tinted glasses on.
Think about how much you want to make and in reality are likely to make, how many hours that is likely to require, what impact that is going to have on your health, relationships with family and friends etc etc.
I'd suggest if you are willing to share it you post it up in detail on here as there are a lot of old hands about that will tell you what they think to your plans and expectations having been there and done it.
Non of that is to say it is not something you should pursue but it is something you should give a lot of thought to as it will help guide you for example as has been suggested perhaps down the automation route.
Best of luck.
If you do get successful at trading you are, with all things remaining the same, going to have to start paying the Premium Charge unless your total charges are too high. When starting out people see this as a good problem to have but it is a real problem and needs thought before you commit to thousands of hours trying to trade.
The biggest investment in life you will make is your time. So think very long and hard about how you think those thousands of hours are going to be invested.
There is a very good chance that you would be far better off in the long term investing that time in your business. If you can grow your business you can become financially free that way. You could in time have staff that do all the work and you semi retire for example.
I would just really recommend that you think long and hard about what it is you are looking to achieve from this and do not do it with rose tinted glasses on.
Think about how much you want to make and in reality are likely to make, how many hours that is likely to require, what impact that is going to have on your health, relationships with family and friends etc etc.
I'd suggest if you are willing to share it you post it up in detail on here as there are a lot of old hands about that will tell you what they think to your plans and expectations having been there and done it.
Non of that is to say it is not something you should pursue but it is something you should give a lot of thought to as it will help guide you for example as has been suggested perhaps down the automation route.
Best of luck.
It would help to actually listen to some of the advice that's being thrown your way, a lot of experienced traders have replied to your thread. I say this because not a lot has changed since your first post, your approach towards trading is more or less the same.
You remind me of a very stubborn friend who kept asking me for advice but he never actually took any, he even sometimes did the exact opposite thing of what I told him to do. He eventually gave up on trading after he lost a big amount of money, he lost everything that he gained from years of arbing and bonus bagging.
I have another friend who also asked for advice but he took everything I said on board. I laid out a simple work plan for him to follow and he followed it to the letter. He was a complete newbie with zero ladder experience and he found success after 2 months without losing any money whatsoever during the learning phase.
What I'm trying to say, is that it all comes down to effort in the end. The first guy didn't take any advice because taking that advice meant that he had to put in some genuine effort into trading and that was something he was never capable of doing, because deep down he was only looking for shortcuts and an easy way to make money. The second guy had no problem whatsoever in putting in any amount of effort that was required, he only needed some guidance and advice to avoid the costly mistakes that people make in the learning phase.
You remind me of a very stubborn friend who kept asking me for advice but he never actually took any, he even sometimes did the exact opposite thing of what I told him to do. He eventually gave up on trading after he lost a big amount of money, he lost everything that he gained from years of arbing and bonus bagging.
I have another friend who also asked for advice but he took everything I said on board. I laid out a simple work plan for him to follow and he followed it to the letter. He was a complete newbie with zero ladder experience and he found success after 2 months without losing any money whatsoever during the learning phase.
What I'm trying to say, is that it all comes down to effort in the end. The first guy didn't take any advice because taking that advice meant that he had to put in some genuine effort into trading and that was something he was never capable of doing, because deep down he was only looking for shortcuts and an easy way to make money. The second guy had no problem whatsoever in putting in any amount of effort that was required, he only needed some guidance and advice to avoid the costly mistakes that people make in the learning phase.
Last edited by Kai on Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's amazing how something so simple can also be so hard to master, the market only goes up and down but through fear and inexperiance as one of peters videos shows we get shaken out of the market and lose.
One test that i did was to use small amounts of money so even if the market went 20 ticks against me it wouldn't matter, i would then look for a trend and go for it and leave it no matter what happened, i ended up with a small profit after a week and the reason i ended up with a profit was because i predicted a trend and won more than 50% of the time.
As Kai said about his losing friend he was just looking for a quick way to make money and as alot of people do when they get into this trading they want money fast and just throw there money at it without putting any effort in and then give up when they have blown all there money i nearly gave this up twice for that reason.
One test that i did was to use small amounts of money so even if the market went 20 ticks against me it wouldn't matter, i would then look for a trend and go for it and leave it no matter what happened, i ended up with a small profit after a week and the reason i ended up with a profit was because i predicted a trend and won more than 50% of the time.
As Kai said about his losing friend he was just looking for a quick way to make money and as alot of people do when they get into this trading they want money fast and just throw there money at it without putting any effort in and then give up when they have blown all there money i nearly gave this up twice for that reason.
Thanks for your comments gents......
Andy - My independence and freedom isn't going to come from carpets I think that's safe to say, principally because of the old chestnut "you can't get the staff" employing the right person is hard enough in any industry but carpets are very specific and something that most people wouldn't have a clue about. I couldn't afford to head hunt someone and for circa £15k, I can't expect much. In addition to all this, I find that a lot of people have real difficulty working on their own. They get bored, feel lonely, hate it if there's no one to talk to.
I could write a thousand words about why I couldn't expand here but suffice to say, I don't think carpets is the answer.
I have given a lot of thought to premium charge but decided that I'm in cuckoo land at the moment so shelved it for the time being.
Kai - You hit a nerve but only because the truth hurts..... "always looking for a shortcut" I could write a book a book about my failings in life because of this. What really pisses me off is the fact that in another walk of life i.e weight loss, I go on the forum for that and I'm one the "winners" who reads rubbish from poster after poster about wanting to lose weight but not putting the effort in and wondering why they are failing? I've even had one woman e-mail me asking me for advice about fitness and nutrition. I lost 87lbs since March 16th this year with determination, will power and commitment. No cutting corners, no shortcuts, I'm going to see this through and I did. I need to apply that sort of effort to this....
Marko - Losing weight is fundamentally one of the most simple, basic things to do and yet millions of people are unable to do so usually because they try hard for a week or two and then give up.
I can relate to that while trading, trying hard for a week or two and then going in-play or losing discipline while chasing money resulting in an eventual wipeout.
I feel good mentally though and look forward to todays efforts.
Andy - My independence and freedom isn't going to come from carpets I think that's safe to say, principally because of the old chestnut "you can't get the staff" employing the right person is hard enough in any industry but carpets are very specific and something that most people wouldn't have a clue about. I couldn't afford to head hunt someone and for circa £15k, I can't expect much. In addition to all this, I find that a lot of people have real difficulty working on their own. They get bored, feel lonely, hate it if there's no one to talk to.
I could write a thousand words about why I couldn't expand here but suffice to say, I don't think carpets is the answer.
I have given a lot of thought to premium charge but decided that I'm in cuckoo land at the moment so shelved it for the time being.
Kai - You hit a nerve but only because the truth hurts..... "always looking for a shortcut" I could write a book a book about my failings in life because of this. What really pisses me off is the fact that in another walk of life i.e weight loss, I go on the forum for that and I'm one the "winners" who reads rubbish from poster after poster about wanting to lose weight but not putting the effort in and wondering why they are failing? I've even had one woman e-mail me asking me for advice about fitness and nutrition. I lost 87lbs since March 16th this year with determination, will power and commitment. No cutting corners, no shortcuts, I'm going to see this through and I did. I need to apply that sort of effort to this....
Marko - Losing weight is fundamentally one of the most simple, basic things to do and yet millions of people are unable to do so usually because they try hard for a week or two and then give up.
I can relate to that while trading, trying hard for a week or two and then going in-play or losing discipline while chasing money resulting in an eventual wipeout.
I feel good mentally though and look forward to todays efforts.
Just a little update.........
I've got a funny feeling that I'm finally seeing this from a different perspective.
I have been watching videos and have noticed (not suprisingly) that regardless of the strategies used, all the good traders have one thing in common when a trade goes against them - they get out. Maybe not instantly but they all have an exit point planned and stick to it.
I have been adopting this (finally) in my trading and instantly things are looking better.
Also I used to have a real struggle not trading if I thought I could identify a trend 20 mins out. I used to think that if the price is going to go from 2.5 to 3.2 why not get on now rather than in 15 mins when it's already 3.1 for instance. I always felt like I was missing out. Now I leave it until 7 mins at the earliest and usually go in about 5 mins or below.
So far this week I haven't won much but I have:
1 - Not put myself under pressure watching a red screen get out of hand.
2 - Not entered a trade "for something to do" or to have a "punt"
3 - Not lost money.
I dunno, I'm probably jumping the gun but I feel after more than a year of doing this, it's like I see it differently all of a sudden.
It's a good feeling for me to feel like I'm in control as well because I thought it would be a good idea to only enter trades in races that have 75% of the book over the first 3 in the betting. I took a view that it might make it easier to identify moves that way. Even though this might not be the right thing to do, I felt I had to start being more selective in my races in the first place, I'm sure that has helped.
Anyway, So far so good......
I've got a funny feeling that I'm finally seeing this from a different perspective.
I have been watching videos and have noticed (not suprisingly) that regardless of the strategies used, all the good traders have one thing in common when a trade goes against them - they get out. Maybe not instantly but they all have an exit point planned and stick to it.
I have been adopting this (finally) in my trading and instantly things are looking better.
Also I used to have a real struggle not trading if I thought I could identify a trend 20 mins out. I used to think that if the price is going to go from 2.5 to 3.2 why not get on now rather than in 15 mins when it's already 3.1 for instance. I always felt like I was missing out. Now I leave it until 7 mins at the earliest and usually go in about 5 mins or below.
So far this week I haven't won much but I have:
1 - Not put myself under pressure watching a red screen get out of hand.
2 - Not entered a trade "for something to do" or to have a "punt"
3 - Not lost money.
I dunno, I'm probably jumping the gun but I feel after more than a year of doing this, it's like I see it differently all of a sudden.
It's a good feeling for me to feel like I'm in control as well because I thought it would be a good idea to only enter trades in races that have 75% of the book over the first 3 in the betting. I took a view that it might make it easier to identify moves that way. Even though this might not be the right thing to do, I felt I had to start being more selective in my races in the first place, I'm sure that has helped.
Anyway, So far so good......
I have often said that its not the profits that show when your on the right track its your mindset and how you are viewing your trading mentally.
Anyone can make a profit through recklessness and baisically turn a trade into a gamble, your on the right track when your able to analize the market activity and make a desision based on a number of factors (none of which include emotions) then enter/exit the market based on these factors unfolding.
Finally regardless of the result of a trade be able to move onto the next with no emotional attachemnt to the previous - if your in despair or jumping for joy move away and come back when your level headed.
Anyone can make a profit through recklessness and baisically turn a trade into a gamble, your on the right track when your able to analize the market activity and make a desision based on a number of factors (none of which include emotions) then enter/exit the market based on these factors unfolding.
Finally regardless of the result of a trade be able to move onto the next with no emotional attachemnt to the previous - if your in despair or jumping for joy move away and come back when your level headed.
I have been watching videos and have noticed (not suprisingly) that regardless of the strategies used, all the good traders have one thing in common when a trade goes against them - they get out. Maybe not instantly but they all have an exit point planned and stick to it.
Err...I thought good traders had been telling you this for??- a year?
Never mind...I think we all enjoy reading your (anguished?) progress...as some of it is what we all go through in the learning process and reinforces what we should be learning...so please keep your 'blog' up- and Good Luck!!
Cheers,
Black Ice
Err...I thought good traders had been telling you this for??- a year?
Never mind...I think we all enjoy reading your (anguished?) progress...as some of it is what we all go through in the learning process and reinforces what we should be learning...so please keep your 'blog' up- and Good Luck!!
Cheers,
Black Ice
Err...I thought good traders had been telling you this for??- a year?
This is true but I for some reason have to do everything the hard way. I'm glad you enjoy my anguish anyway so that's perked me up for the day
Only joking, I'm big enough and ugly enough to face up to it, I'm responsible for what I do and no one else. If I chose to not listen, that's up to me. You can lead a horse to water...........................Hopefully now though, I'm taking a sip.
I know how important emotions are Dallas but to me they are usually important because they cost me money, I can't control them. When I used to win, I used to go home overjoyed at what I'd done and when I'd done something stupid, it'd still be fresh in my mind 6 hours later. I'd be having dinner dwelling on what a f****** twat I've been. It's negative and mentally damaging.
I feel much better now though and whatever happens today when I trade, I will make sure I don't go there. I've got to stop looking at my bank though, I wish there was a way that the figure in the bottom corner could be removed but I assume it can't. I keep looking at it and it can influence what I do which is wrong. I have now been accepting losses and moving on regardless of the bank which has helped.
I know many people, with good reason, question my suitability to trading, what I want from it, what am I prepared to put in and many other doubts or questions but I want to prove you wrong and given a bit more time on this new mindset I have, lets see how I get on for a month. I can't change what a prat I've been but I can change what I do ongoing and I'm making an extra effort to do so. I do appreciate the comments and feedback though, I'm determined not to waste it this time.
This is true but I for some reason have to do everything the hard way. I'm glad you enjoy my anguish anyway so that's perked me up for the day
Only joking, I'm big enough and ugly enough to face up to it, I'm responsible for what I do and no one else. If I chose to not listen, that's up to me. You can lead a horse to water...........................Hopefully now though, I'm taking a sip.I know how important emotions are Dallas but to me they are usually important because they cost me money, I can't control them. When I used to win, I used to go home overjoyed at what I'd done and when I'd done something stupid, it'd still be fresh in my mind 6 hours later. I'd be having dinner dwelling on what a f****** twat I've been. It's negative and mentally damaging.
I feel much better now though and whatever happens today when I trade, I will make sure I don't go there. I've got to stop looking at my bank though, I wish there was a way that the figure in the bottom corner could be removed but I assume it can't. I keep looking at it and it can influence what I do which is wrong. I have now been accepting losses and moving on regardless of the bank which has helped.
I know many people, with good reason, question my suitability to trading, what I want from it, what am I prepared to put in and many other doubts or questions but I want to prove you wrong and given a bit more time on this new mindset I have, lets see how I get on for a month. I can't change what a prat I've been but I can change what I do ongoing and I'm making an extra effort to do so. I do appreciate the comments and feedback though, I'm determined not to waste it this time.