Below is a transcript of a chat I had with a Betfair adviser.
Jonathan: Hello welcome to Betfair you are chatting with Jonathan. How can I help?
Matthew Haynes: hi
Matthew Haynes: can you help explain something here please
Matthew Haynes: 02/11/2015 14:03:14: £ 5.00 Back bet placed on Urcalin at 15.5. £ 4.6 matched at 15.5 £ 0.4 unmatched when it initially reached the market. Ref: 57585444849
Matthew Haynes: as you can see a back bet was placed at 15.5
Matthew Haynes: 02/11/2015 14:03:26: Placed closure bet on Urcalin by Laying 5.00 at 11
02/11/2015 14:03:45: An error occurred while Placing closure bet on: The order cannot be processed as your betfair account does not have enough funds (or has exceeded its exposure limit).
02/11/2015 14:03:45: Cancelling bets 57585452812
Matthew Haynes: Why has it cancelled my bet when I was laying @ 11
Jonathan: Please hold whilst I have a look into this
Matthew Haynes: I'd backed at 15.5 and went to lay at 11, this should have gone through ok
Jonathan: Do you use a trading software?
Matthew Haynes: yes Bet Angel
Jonathan: And you received the error message on betangel?
Matthew Haynes: yes
Matthew Haynes: in the log
Jonathan: Okay, from looking into your account, I cant see any reason why that wouldnt have gone through, you were not in breech of your exposure limit at all, all I can suggest is that you contact either bet angel or [email protected] as we dont deal with API related queries on the helpdesk, apologies for this.
Matthew Haynes: Ok Cheers Jonathan, I will do
Now this has happened twice today, here is the other instance
02/11/2015 13:42:12: Market changed to Ludl 2nd Nov - 14:10 2m Hcap Chs
02/11/2015 13:42:24: £ 10.00 Back bet placed on Furrows at 8.8. Fully matched at 8.8. Ref: 57584641372
02/11/2015 13:43:04: Placed closure bet on Furrows by Laying 10.00 at 6.2
02/11/2015 13:43:06: Modify bet persistence 57584665782 from 'Cancel' to 'Keep'
02/11/2015 14:08:07: Market changed to Ludl 2nd Nov - 14:10 2m Hcap Chs
02/11/2015 14:10:15: Market has been suspended
02/11/2015 14:10:16: Market is in-play
02/11/2015 14:10:17: Market has been unsuspended
02/11/2015 14:13:45: An error occurred while Placing closure bet on: The order cannot be processed as your betfair account does not have enough funds (or has exceeded its exposure limit).
02/11/2015 14:13:45: Cancelling bets 57584665782
Here is the Reply from the BDP
Dear Matt,
Your query is not actually API related and therefore I have forward this to the Helpdesk manager to investigate. Betangel does run via the API however the issue is likely not with BetAngel or the API but accounts related. I have given all the details and what to look for so they will come back to you directly.
Kind Regards,
Robert
Ok I thought it makes sense that its not an API Issue, but this is where it gets interesting as I’ve never come across such wilful disdain or complete ineptitude in my life and I want to take this further as I feel the staff I was talking to were just trying to put me away and I’d like to know why they feel they can treat customers with such disdain.
This is the next communication from Betfair
Hi Matt,
Looking at your bet on Furrows this appears to have been placed correctly back £10 @8.8 then you attempted to Lay £10 @6.2 @ 13:43 this remain unmatched until the "OFF" at which point you or your APi canceled the bet.
You will need to speak with the Vendor to understand how their application handles this situation and the execution it was trying to process.
Kind Regards,
Tom
And my response
Hi Tom,
The API cancelled the bet after the OFF at 14:13:45, the OFF was 14:10:16 so what you say doesn't make sense, again see my log below for details
02/11/2015 13:42:12: Market changed to Ludl 2nd Nov - 14:10 2m Hcap Chs
02/11/2015 13:42:24: £ 10.00 Back bet placed on Furrows at 8.8. Fully matched at 8.8. Ref: 57584641372
02/11/2015 13:43:04: Placed closure bet on Furrows by Laying 10.00 at 6.2
02/11/2015 13:43:06: Modify bet persistence 57584665782 from 'Cancel' to 'Keep'
02/11/2015 14:08:07: Market changed to Ludl 2nd Nov - 14:10 2m Hcap Chs
02/11/2015 14:10:15: Market has been suspended
02/11/2015 14:10:16: Market is in-play
02/11/2015 14:10:17: Market has been unsuspended
02/11/2015 14:13:45: An error occurred while Placing closure bet on: The order cannot be processed as your betfair account does not have enough funds (or has exceeded its exposure limit).
02/11/2015 14:13:45: Cancelling bets 57584665782
Regards
Matt
They then flip the conversation onto the other horse in question
Hi Matt,
The Lay bet on Urcalin was successful £5 @11 however this was not selected as a keep bet and again canceled at the off.
BET ID: 57585452812
Placed 02/11/2015 14:03:25 canceled 02/11/2015 14:03:45
Kind Regards,
Tom
This is unbelievable as the bet was placed in-play, so I responded.
Hi Tom,
With all due respect, how can this bet be cancelled at the off when the race went off at14:00:22, please credit me with some intelligence and stop trying to mug me off.
Once again look at the log
02/11/2015 14:03:14: £ 5.00 Back bet placed on Urcalin at 15.5. £ 4.6 matched at 15.5 £ 0.4 unmatched when it initially reached the market. Ref: 57585444849
02/11/2015 14:03:26: Placed closure bet on Urcalin by Laying 5.00 at 11
02/11/2015 14:03:45: An error occurred while Placing closure bet on: The order cannot be processed as your betfair account does not have enough funds (or has exceeded its exposure limit).
02/11/2015 14:03:45: Cancelling bets 57585452812
These bets were placed in-play, so I'm still awaiting an explanation
Regards
Matt
I then received this, the last correspondence which blames Bet Angel.
Hi Matt,
This does not appear to be any error with the API, this is how you are interacting with your 3rd party vendor application and how that application processes the request to our APi.
From our side, the bet was placed, then requested to be canceled, again when using a vendor application we advise you contact the vendor directly.
Kind Regards,
Tom
And that's it, it seems its everybody's fault but Betfairs, there staff have tried to mug me off on numerous occasions by bare faced lying but the fact remains I backed at a higher price but was stopped laying out at a lower price for some reason or another, when it quite clearly should have gone through.
Any thoughts on what I should do?
Unsatisfactory Customer Service
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GoldenEggGoose
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:32 am
Probably worth while going back to BDP, as they seem to have a better understanding of the issue.
Generally speaking, in customer service departments, there are only a very small number of people who have the aptitude to deal with more complex queries (queries that fall outside the norm).
BDP may know of a specific individual that can assist you.
Generally speaking, in customer service departments, there are only a very small number of people who have the aptitude to deal with more complex queries (queries that fall outside the norm).
BDP may know of a specific individual that can assist you.
When you place a closure bet (or green-up) you cancel all existing unmatched bets in the market and place a new bet to fully hedge the position at the current price. So At 14:03:45 Bet Angel both cancelled bet 57585452812 and tried to place a new bet closure bet.Redhead wrote: Matthew Haynes: 02/11/2015 14:03:14: £ 5.00 Back bet placed on Urcalin at 15.5. £ 4.6 matched at 15.5 £ 0.4 unmatched when it initially reached the market. Ref: 57585444849
Matthew Haynes: as you can see a back bet was placed at 15.5
Matthew Haynes: 02/11/2015 14:03:26: Placed closure bet on Urcalin by Laying 5.00 at 11
02/11/2015 14:03:45: An error occurred while Placing closure bet on: The order cannot be processed as your betfair account does not have enough funds (or has exceeded its exposure limit).
02/11/2015 14:03:45: Cancelling bets 57585452812
Matthew Haynes: Why has it cancelled my bet when I was laying @ 11
Jonathan: Please hold whilst I have a look into this
I can see at 14:03:26 the price was 11.0, but 19 seconds later the price must have drifted a lot further and your betfair balance can't have been high enough for them to process the order requested.
So no API errors or faults with Bet Angel, just too late in the race to exit properly based on the amount of money in your account.
There is a setting in Bet Angel to prevent it from cancelling a selections unmatched bets when closing a trade, but we wouldn't advise that you turn it off otherwise you could double-up on the exit order. http://www.betangel.com/user-guide/behaviour.html
To me it looks like a probem with the way you where trying to close out, from your logs it looks like you tried to drag your lay already placed in the market upto a higher price as it drfited, the example below should explain why it was then cancelled out of the market completly.
Lets say you account balance is £100 then with £100 you back at 11.0 this gives possible winnings of £1000 now if you drag your unmatched £100 lay from 7.0 bet upto 21.0 you would need £2000 to cover this new liability which exceeds your balance even with your possible winnings so as soon as you release the mouse if the odds you have released at are too high then your lay dissapears from the market altogether - for this example if you tried to move the £100 lay above 12.5 (£1150 liability) it would of dissapeared as you exceeded you balance.
You could either click on the hedge figure which cancels all other unmatched bets and enters the approprate amount at those odds or manually calculate what you need to do in your head with above example you could of cancelled the £100 @7.0 and then layed £50 @ 21.00 this would keep you just within you balance and leave you with a £50 overall loss if that horse now goes on to win and zero with any other winner.
Lets say you account balance is £100 then with £100 you back at 11.0 this gives possible winnings of £1000 now if you drag your unmatched £100 lay from 7.0 bet upto 21.0 you would need £2000 to cover this new liability which exceeds your balance even with your possible winnings so as soon as you release the mouse if the odds you have released at are too high then your lay dissapears from the market altogether - for this example if you tried to move the £100 lay above 12.5 (£1150 liability) it would of dissapeared as you exceeded you balance.
You could either click on the hedge figure which cancels all other unmatched bets and enters the approprate amount at those odds or manually calculate what you need to do in your head with above example you could of cancelled the £100 @7.0 and then layed £50 @ 21.00 this would keep you just within you balance and leave you with a £50 overall loss if that horse now goes on to win and zero with any other winner.
Cheers for the answers guys, I was running some automation with only £20 in my bank and wondered why my bets were being cancelled as I clearly had enough at the price I asked for.
I was stunned by the stupidity of the helpdesk, especially the way they try and put you away with generic answers.
Back to the drawing board with the automation me thinks.
I was stunned by the stupidity of the helpdesk, especially the way they try and put you away with generic answers.
Back to the drawing board with the automation me thinks.
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convoysur-2
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:00 am
Hi Heres one from last week ,i was trading a football game late at night while watching a movie,and they just decided to not offer the market any more on exchange,some fooking good that is to traders offering money and seeding markets,, on the other monitor,here is the conversation with betfair,,you couldent make it up...
Marc Brennan: hi why is the aldosivo v independente game suspended 4 mins before the off ????? i have trades in there need to get my money out |??
Marc Brennan: i have trades in the match odds
Marcus: Hi there and a very good evening to you.
Marc Brennan: ok so ??? your answer is ??
Marcus: It may be suspended for many reasons, market movements, liquidity, live feed issues, you will have to wait until it is available and unsuspended fMarcus: Hello welcome to Betfair you are chatting with Marcus. How can I help?
or you to trade again
Marc Brennan: but its available in the sports book ??
Marc Brennan: im loking at it now
Marcus: Exchange and sportsbook are two different products.
Marcus: So they have two didfferent teams, two different traders etc.
Marc Brennan: wait a minuite,,,,for christ sake,,its the same markets and same company
Marcus: but not the same product.
Marcus: Not the same markets
Marcus: liquidity in one product is different to the other for example.
Marc Brennan: i want you to cover my liability of 54.95 on this problem
Marcus: What do you mean?
Marc Brennan: what are you talking about,,,,,u cant just stop a market with peoples money in it and say its a different product,,its the same bloody game and same company.....i9 want my money out of this market
Marcus: Yes of course we reserve the right for us to suspend trading at any time.
Marcus: But it does not mean that they will be suspended for the entire game.
Marcus: So please continue to monitor it just in case traders have made a decision to unsuspend the markets.
Marc Brennan: really....thats the best you are prepared to do ? just give me a silly response like that,,so basically ,thats the way it is and if i dont like it i can go some where else,is that what your company is prepared to do for me at this time,??
Marc Brennan: you are going to offer me no help at al ??
Marcus: I can only advise you of what can happen.
Marcus: As such you will have to wait until the markets are unsuspended in order to conrtinue trading.
Marc Brennan: so to summerise your telling me ,,you have the right to suspend trading at any time,,and maybe just maybe they will unsuspend the markets,,,but you cant contact anyone and ask if the markets will be unsuspended..?? but its not suspended in the sports book,,,thats ok because you have more profit there,,,,and i can just quitely go away
Marc Brennan: not go away angry just go away
Marcus: You are entirely right and I am very sorry but yes we would not know if it can be unsuspended and when, markets cannot be predicted.
Marc Brennan: i would like to speak with a manager please
Marc Brennan: i will not accept this
Marcus: Just advised the manager, sorry this is not a managerial issue, what I have told you is correct information.
Marcus: I am sorry but if markets will become available for trading you can trade out.
Marcus: I can give you one piece of personal advice though.
Marcus: In order to cover yourself, you do not need to look at the specific market you are trading in currently.
Marc Brennan: yes please,,,tell me
Marcus: I can't give you tips.
Marcus: But if you look at other markets you can cover yourself.
Marc Brennan: wait
Marcus: That's the thing about trading you can work your way around it, have a look at some forums online or on some yourtube channels.
File attachment upload has started.
The file ScreenShot_20151102003809.png (142.66KB) was received.
Marcus: There are many there that show you how to trade to make profit.
Marcus: Is this a bot?
Marc Brennan: but the only way to do this is to back the other markets
Marc Brennan: u mean make a book and back the other 2 ??
Marc Brennan: no its betangel software
Marc Brennan: ffor trading
Marcus: Yes a bot, I can't tell you what you have to do because we cannot give out tips.
Marcus: But you can look at other markets and if the numbers are right you can back yourself up and walk away with profit too or at least decrease your losses.
Marc Brennan: its a manual trading platform its not automated
Marc Brennan: therefore its not a bot
Marcus: Ok no worries.
Marc Brennan: ok ill wait to see if it unsuspends,,,,
Marc Brennan: thank you,,,,,
Marcus: No worries Marc.
Marcus: Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Marc Brennan: yes free bets
Marcus: I cna see if you are eligible for one on the sportsbook because we do not have for exchange.
Marc Brennan: good man thank you,,,will ease my pain a little
Marcus: i can give you a 5.00 free bet today.
Marc Brennan: well thank you,,
Marcus: No worries adding it for you now.
Marc Brennan: thanks,,,bye
Marcus: No worries, Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Marc Brennan: thanks
Marcus:
Great to talk to you today. If you’d like all the latest updates, you can follow us on Twitter @BetfairHelpdesk.
Marcus: Have a good night and take care!
Marcus has disconnected.
Marc Brennan: hi why is the aldosivo v independente game suspended 4 mins before the off ????? i have trades in there need to get my money out |??
Marc Brennan: i have trades in the match odds
Marcus: Hi there and a very good evening to you.
Marc Brennan: ok so ??? your answer is ??
Marcus: It may be suspended for many reasons, market movements, liquidity, live feed issues, you will have to wait until it is available and unsuspended fMarcus: Hello welcome to Betfair you are chatting with Marcus. How can I help?
or you to trade again
Marc Brennan: but its available in the sports book ??
Marc Brennan: im loking at it now
Marcus: Exchange and sportsbook are two different products.
Marcus: So they have two didfferent teams, two different traders etc.
Marc Brennan: wait a minuite,,,,for christ sake,,its the same markets and same company
Marcus: but not the same product.
Marcus: Not the same markets
Marcus: liquidity in one product is different to the other for example.
Marc Brennan: i want you to cover my liability of 54.95 on this problem
Marcus: What do you mean?
Marc Brennan: what are you talking about,,,,,u cant just stop a market with peoples money in it and say its a different product,,its the same bloody game and same company.....i9 want my money out of this market
Marcus: Yes of course we reserve the right for us to suspend trading at any time.
Marcus: But it does not mean that they will be suspended for the entire game.
Marcus: So please continue to monitor it just in case traders have made a decision to unsuspend the markets.
Marc Brennan: really....thats the best you are prepared to do ? just give me a silly response like that,,so basically ,thats the way it is and if i dont like it i can go some where else,is that what your company is prepared to do for me at this time,??
Marc Brennan: you are going to offer me no help at al ??
Marcus: I can only advise you of what can happen.
Marcus: As such you will have to wait until the markets are unsuspended in order to conrtinue trading.
Marc Brennan: so to summerise your telling me ,,you have the right to suspend trading at any time,,and maybe just maybe they will unsuspend the markets,,,but you cant contact anyone and ask if the markets will be unsuspended..?? but its not suspended in the sports book,,,thats ok because you have more profit there,,,,and i can just quitely go away
Marc Brennan: not go away angry just go away
Marcus: You are entirely right and I am very sorry but yes we would not know if it can be unsuspended and when, markets cannot be predicted.
Marc Brennan: i would like to speak with a manager please
Marc Brennan: i will not accept this
Marcus: Just advised the manager, sorry this is not a managerial issue, what I have told you is correct information.
Marcus: I am sorry but if markets will become available for trading you can trade out.
Marcus: I can give you one piece of personal advice though.
Marcus: In order to cover yourself, you do not need to look at the specific market you are trading in currently.
Marc Brennan: yes please,,,tell me
Marcus: I can't give you tips.
Marcus: But if you look at other markets you can cover yourself.
Marc Brennan: wait
Marcus: That's the thing about trading you can work your way around it, have a look at some forums online or on some yourtube channels.
File attachment upload has started.
The file ScreenShot_20151102003809.png (142.66KB) was received.
Marcus: There are many there that show you how to trade to make profit.
Marcus: Is this a bot?
Marc Brennan: but the only way to do this is to back the other markets
Marc Brennan: u mean make a book and back the other 2 ??
Marc Brennan: no its betangel software
Marc Brennan: ffor trading
Marcus: Yes a bot, I can't tell you what you have to do because we cannot give out tips.
Marcus: But you can look at other markets and if the numbers are right you can back yourself up and walk away with profit too or at least decrease your losses.
Marc Brennan: its a manual trading platform its not automated
Marc Brennan: therefore its not a bot
Marcus: Ok no worries.
Marc Brennan: ok ill wait to see if it unsuspends,,,,
Marc Brennan: thank you,,,,,
Marcus: No worries Marc.
Marcus: Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Marc Brennan: yes free bets
Marcus: I cna see if you are eligible for one on the sportsbook because we do not have for exchange.
Marc Brennan: good man thank you,,,will ease my pain a little
Marcus: i can give you a 5.00 free bet today.
Marc Brennan: well thank you,,
Marcus: No worries adding it for you now.
Marc Brennan: thanks,,,bye
Marcus: No worries, Is there anything else I can help you with today?
Marc Brennan: thanks
Marcus:
Great to talk to you today. If you’d like all the latest updates, you can follow us on Twitter @BetfairHelpdesk.
Marcus: Have a good night and take care!
Marcus has disconnected.
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convoysur-2
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:00 am
the file i uploaded was the screen shot of betangel with the red showing,,,complete asreholes
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convoysur-2
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:00 am
Peter webb>>>>
Peter is it possible for you please to find out what is the safe amount traded to enter a market on match odds with betfair.
what i mean is this,,
they suspend markets because of lack of liquidity so if im looking at a football match odds is it safe to say that if 20.000 .30.000 is traded they wont suspend it ,??
im asking you because i think your the only one on here that has anyone to talk to in that company.
Thanks
Marc
Peter is it possible for you please to find out what is the safe amount traded to enter a market on match odds with betfair.
what i mean is this,,
they suspend markets because of lack of liquidity so if im looking at a football match odds is it safe to say that if 20.000 .30.000 is traded they wont suspend it ,??
im asking you because i think your the only one on here that has anyone to talk to in that company.
Thanks
Marc
