BTL (Back To Lay) Traders

The sport of kings.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Interesting. What sort of techniques are used?

Jeff
andyfuller wrote:
Ferru123 wrote:Do you think it's possible to spot market over-reactions in-play without access to live pictures?
Yes and I have seen trading inplay done very successfully without pictures, audio etc. just the Betfair numbers on the screen.
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JollyGreen
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

Ferru123 wrote:Actually, they are based on a spreadsheet I wrote, based on what is likely to happen over 1,000 bets/lays. :)

BACK

Current 50.0
TRUE 25.0

Unsuccessful bets £960.00
Successful bets £1,862.00
Loss from unsuccessful bets -£960.00
Profit from successful bets £1,862.00
P & L £902.00
Amount risked £1,000.00
% profit 90.20%

LAYS

Current 25.0
TRUE 50.0

Successful lays £931.00
Unsuccessful bets £480.00
Loss from unsuccessful bets -£480.00
Profit from successful bets £931.00
P & L £451.00
Amount risked £24,000.00
% profit 1.88%
JollyGreen wrote:
Your ROI figures are totally subjective based on your own point of view but I am talking about correct figures where people will always take the back option rather than the lay.
You're missing one major point. Who says the odds in your sheet are true?

If the true and correct odds are 10/1 then backing all of those true and correct will return the same if you laid the same horses. That cannot be disputed it is pure mathematics and I used it to prove that most people will always bet first because that is how punters behave, they always feel that backing is more profitable. You have proved yourself to belong that group with your spreadsheet because those are your true odds and not the correct true odds. Prices will invariably be higher on Betfair for longer priced horses because greed plays a part. How many times will you see a bookmaker offer odds above 100/1 - not often. Have a look at Betfair and see how the numbers stack up - you'll find a different story.

You are using words such as "likely" but as I keep saying that is purely subjective and it all takes on your view of things. That is not the same as TRUE and CORRECT odds and the way that punters always back rather than lay. I am not saying your figures are wrong I am saying the odds are not TRUE and that you are therefore looking at different things - not comparing eggs with eggs if you like!
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi JollyGreen

I fully acknowledge that assumption.

However, I think it is possible to arrive at an extremely accurate view of a horse's odds. See, for example, this page (written by Peter Webb):

http://www.probabilitytheory.info/topic ... market.htm

Jeff
JollyGreen wrote:
You're missing one major point. Who says the odds in your sheet are true?
Human123
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:44 pm

Is enzabella scalping or swing trading?

thats a pretty good return for someone who says they dont normally trade horses!?
Online Trader
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:13 am

I am pleased that this post has prompted so much healthy debate :D

But I guess the answer to my original question is no :lol:

If there are any BTL lurkers out there feel free to chip in ;)
Yantraman
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:30 pm

Hi OT

I have been looking into and collecting data on inplay volitility for a while whith the intention of finding a profitable BTL stratergy. It has certainly thrown up some interesting results!

Thanks for starting this thread - When I have more time I will post some more!
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi Yantraman

What have you discovered?

Jeff
Yantraman wrote:Hi OT

I have been looking into and collecting data on inplay volitility for a while whith the intention of finding a profitable BTL stratergy. It has certainly thrown up some interesting results!

Thanks for starting this thread - When I have more time I will post some more!
Human123
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:44 pm

From my quick looks,

on sprint races it seems to find at least half the horses in a race will trade down to 50% of their odds...

So based on that if you went with some of the favorites you would be "unlucky" not to catch one surely?

well, based on further looking it seems the horses that DO trade to half their odds are normally the long priced ones 15+....

It seems the front 2/3 favorites wont really ever trade to half their odds unless they actually win or come very close.

This is just from looking at recent stats and not a comprehensive assessment.

But there might be enough info in there for someone to get an idea about the whole thing and perhaps bounce some more ideas off in this thread.
Zenyatta
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:17 pm

Fascinating, Fascinating.

The In-Play market is totally different to the pre-race market.

The pre-race price shifts are due to changes in sentiment (its all about what's in people's minds). But the In-Play price shifts are due to actual physical changes in the position of the horses.

Two very very different markets! Totally different. What works pre-race has nothing to do with what might work In-Play.
nomadic
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:17 am

The In-Play market is totally different to the pre-race market.

The pre-race price shifts are due to changes in sentiment (its all about what's in people's minds). But the In-Play price shifts are due to actual physical changes in the position of the horses.
Indeed a very important distinction, and I agree with you 99%. By the end of the race, price shifts are indeed driven almost entirely by actual performance of the horses, but early on in races (especially longer races of 2m or more), there can still be several instances of price shifts due to sentiment rather than performance.

For example, I have encountered several cases where let's say I backed a horse at 20 and hoped to get out in play at 15 or 10. The horse comes out and seems to be running well, but nevertheless, someone has thrown up a large block of lay bets, at let's say 25. For a horse trading at 25 in a typical race, the amounts being traded in-play are usually traded in rather small amounts - 5 here, 10 there. If a horse is running well, but not "superbly", it could take quite some time for the market to eat through several hundred laid at 25.

In fact, usually by the time that has happened, the race has been decided - either the horse will fade and bidding to back the horse will disappear even before all of the lay bets at 25 have been absorbed OR the horse will be clearly challenging to win with odds or probably 5 or less. The point being, if you're backing-to-lay in order to secure a small/medium gain while being able to get out with only a small loss if the horse doesn't seem to perform early on, it's not possible - your back-to-lay has been essentially turned into almost a pure punt. I've had several cases where the horse performed well in the end, but I wasn't willing to risk the entire stake I was using for the race, so I had no choice but to get in front of the large layer and get out early with a small loss.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

nomadic wrote:
The point being, if you're backing-to-lay in order to secure a small/medium gain while being able to get out with only a small loss if the horse doesn't seem to perform early on, it's not possible - your back-to-lay has been essentially turned into almost a pure punt.
Hi Nomadic

That's interesting.

So in light of that, assuming I don't have live pictures and know nothing about horse form, is there any way for me to consistently trade profitably in-play?

Jeff
nomadic
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:17 am

So in light of that, assuming I don't have live pictures and know nothing about horse form, is there any way for me to consistently trade profitably in-play?
If you're trading with knowledge of the horses, I definitely think there is. Perhaps even without much knowledge. The case I was presenting is more of any annoyance that one should be prepared to encounter however, and be prepared to face from time-to-time. It's not the norm, but can be very frustrating when it happens.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

One thing I've noticed in-play is that you will often get a horse steaming in, only for it to end up not even placing!

I'm not sure how you translate this into a consistently profitable strategy, however. I've tried laying the field at below 2.0, but with mixed results.

Jeff
nomadic wrote:
If you're trading with knowledge of the horses, I definitely think there is. Perhaps even without much knowledge. The case I was presenting is more of any annoyance that one should be prepared to encounter however, and be prepared to face from time-to-time. It's not the norm, but can be very frustrating when it happens.
ba1000
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:02 pm

Hi OnlineTrader,

Can you check my maths please on your system to see if I understand it correctly? This may be very idealised and you may not trade your system like this as you did enter your Ling 17:30 twice for example. (Note: I am not trying to discredit your system I am just trying to understand it.)

To recap: 65% of Back Price (Odds 4 to 9) 7f Races.

Back Odds Back Stake Back Win Back Loss
4 20 60.00 -20.00
5 20 80.00 -20.00
6 20 100.00 -20.00
7 20 120.00 -20.00
8 20 140.00 -20.00
9 20 160.00 -20.00

Lay EXIT Odds Lay Stake Lay Win Lay Loss
2.6 30.77 30.77 -49.23
3.25 30.77 30.77 -69.23
3.9 30.77 30.77 -89.23
4.55 30.77 30.77 -109.23
5.2 30.77 30.77 -129.23
5.85 30.77 30.77 -149.23

Net Back Profit Net Lay Profit
10.77 10.77
10.77 10.77
10.77 10.77
10.77 10.77
10.77 10.77
10.77 10.77

So basically:

If Trade Succeeded = £10.77
If Trade Failed = -£20.00

which means you are trading at 1:2 (profit:loss ratio)(approxiately)

You said you had done 25 trades 4 of which were losses:

No of Winning Trades 21

No of Lossing Trades 4


(Approx) So you are trading at: 5:1 (winning trades:lossing trades ratio)

21 * 10.77 = £226.17 gross profit

4 * -20 = -£80.00 gross loss
===============================
NET PROFIT = £146.17

(lets forget commission for this example).


Hmmm Nice
ba1000
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:02 pm

Sorry OnlineTrader but the nice columns I had put in have gone!! so its much more difficult to read!
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