making a profit then blowing it.........

[fatsam]

advice would be wonderful on this little issue I am having
I find from a starting bank of £500 it is achievable to net £100 to £150 in a days activity. However i try to nick an extra few quid and low and behold im down on the session again.
To be fair I did make a good living from outright punting and used that knowledge to trade, or try and trade.
Am i looking at too big a margin from a days trading with banks of £500, and using £50 and sometimes £200 to push in to the market? Do i trade too much, as when outright punting I would only do form on Black Type races and 2yo and 3yo maidens on the flat and Graded events and Nov Hdle, Chs over the sticks. I'd also look at certain favs running under codes and conditions and look at striuke rates and losing runs, however with trading i look only at the screen and trade the ticks..............and It is not always pretty.

I try not let my trades go in play but its like a broken record and in fairness, letting them go in play is not working as by that time my opinion is either its got nooooo chance so i'll ride the position , or i'll keep it backed and it trails in last from the start

I used to look at ratings and standard deviations from the ratings that could be expected under the race conditions etc and went to the far end of a fart to compile my own 10 years worth of form data for all Group and Black Type races for the last 10 yearswhich i will use again this season, but i would like to watch a trader work and have a good conversation as to their expectancy levels through a trade or week. Clearly I have not converted to trading well as an £18k loss is a little bit painful. However i do look at that as an investment into my knowledge if it turn that into a 60k profit in a year, which if you beak it down is achievable picking up £10 a market if you can hit 120 markets a week over the 52 weeks. Yes that is very basic and takes into no consideration time off and market fluctuations, but a man or woman working for 30k a year has to get to work , and survive on well essentially £82 a day for every day of the year. Basic but true and if it costs you 3k in fuel etc to get to work and bla bla bla, well we can all see tha appeal of picking up a few ££ a trade on the exchanges.
As much as I want to go back to punting , i can see the appeal of trading a great deal more and after also working on course as a bookie , i clearly am doing something wrong big time on my trades.
Is my brain in a state of confusion as to what i am trying to acheive in a trade.............

Any advice will be warmly recieved..................and any kicks in the bollix.........well in fairness are expected.

Cheers


Fatsam

[Alpha322]

advice would be wonderful on this little issue I am having
I find from a starting bank of £500 it is achievable to net £100 to £150 in a days activity. However i try to nick an extra few quid and low and behold im down on the session again.
To be fair I did make a good living from outright punting and used that knowledge to trade, or try and trade.
Am i looking at too big a margin from a days trading with banks of £500, and using £50 and sometimes £200 to push in to the market? Do i trade too much, as when outright punting I would only do form on Black Type races and 2yo and 3yo maidens on the flat and Graded events and Nov Hdle, Chs over the sticks. I'd also look at certain favs running under codes and conditions and look at striuke rates and losing runs, however with trading i look only at the screen and trade the ticks..............and It is not always pretty.

I try not let my trades go in play but its like a broken record and in fairness, letting them go in play is not working as by that time my opinion is either its got nooooo chance so i'll ride the position , or i'll keep it backed and it trails in last from the start

I used to look at ratings and standard deviations from the ratings that could be expected under the race conditions etc and went to the far end of a fart to compile my own 10 years worth of form data for all Group and Black Type races for the last 10 yearswhich i will use again this season, but i would like to watch a trader work and have a good conversation as to their expectancy levels through a trade or week. Clearly I have not converted to trading well as an £18k loss is a little bit painful. However i do look at that as an investment into my knowledge if it turn that into a 60k profit in a year, which if you beak it down is achievable picking up £10 a market if you can hit 120 markets a week over the 52 weeks. Yes that is very basic and takes into no consideration time off and market fluctuations, but a man or woman working for 30k a year has to get to work , and survive on well essentially £82 a day for every day of the year. Basic but true and if it costs you 3k in fuel etc to get to work and bla bla bla, well we can all see tha appeal of picking up a few ££ a trade on the exchanges.
As much as I want to go back to punting , i can see the appeal of trading a great deal more and after also working on course as a bookie , i clearly am doing something wrong big time on my trades.
Is my brain in a state of confusion as to what i am trying to acheive in a trade.............

Any advice will be warmly recieved..................and any kicks in the bollix.........well in fairness are expected.

Cheers




Fatsam

Little and often works, when i started i was the other way round often loss and little profit dont go back to punting, i left that world ages ago. Trading is nothing like punting, you dont gain the payouts like when you get lucky in punting, i put £150 - £750 through the markets (when it allows) but i dont expect to get a £1000 green up,, i trade to a certain level acording to the tick size and odds, if you can green up £10-£20 for 20 events work the maths out over 30 days this is about paitents and not watching your bank for quick payout, thats why so many newbies blow banks, i done it but there comes a time when dicipline kicks in and you improve reading a market, a trader is not interested in the race (well i aint) just a profit from price movement of others in the market
Good luck

[fatsam]

That's the main issue I'm still having. I know it's about looking at a market and trading on the facts presented on the tick charts. I think my main problem is having an overriding opinion on the 3 legged wonky donky that is favourite and letting it run. I convince myself of the logic of trading and I'll stick at it because although I made a living from punting I never really enjoyed the activity of lumping 2 on a horse or event with only one outcome or end result. I wouldn't punt for fun or pleasure and have no understanding of that. I'm struggling with trading because I think I confuse the two distinct different disciplines. I don't want to start disliking my job before I have had a good attempt at understanding it a bit more.
How long did you take to transform your mindset

And many thanks for responding.

Its a weight off my shoulders discussing this intelligently

Fatsam

[fatsam]

Has anyone gone and trained 1 to 1 with a trader. I see is a service they provide at Betangel.
In the bigger scheme of things it may be of benefit?
Any ideas

[Dallas]

You should forget about daily targets in trading, some days there just is not as many opportunities as others and this time of year is a lot more difficult than the summer months because of quality of races, volume etc but even in the summer you ll get flat boring days then ones where race after race has opportunities, you should be looking at your profits at minimum over a week preferably over a month and from horse racing markets expect this to be less during the winter.

From what you have posted and reading between the lines its seems your still gambling a bit at heart - if you make a profitable trade all is good, if it goes against you you let it go in play or turn it into some sort of gamble and if it works out all is good again and you get approx £100 a day doing this

If it goes wrong then a chunk of your bank has gone and thats the cause of your accumulated 18k loss.

The loss is nt a problem and your mindset of seeing it as a investment is the correct way to view it - everyone losses when they first start its the only way anyone can learn its knowing how those losses come about and what the individual does about it that lays the foundations to moving forward and becoming a successful trader.

First thing you need to get into the habit of is limiting any losses and protecting your bank after which the profits will follow and these should be constant and controlled profits - you ll know yourself when your making profits is down to randomness or through reading/understanding the markets.

There are two types of trader, screen traders and form traders - there is some excellent form traders and excellent screen traders but very few can do both.

Screen trader like myself most have no interest in the form side of things its all about the numbers in front of you at that time, if your a form trader and most of these tend to come from a gambling background the biggest obstacle they have is accepting a loss after opening a trade they based on there earlier form analysis and despite what the market in front of them is now clearly telling them.

Another thing you may want to consider is the course by Bet Angel, im yet to ever read a forum post by anyone whos trading it has nt completely changed for the better after going on it.

In the mean time the things IMO you need most to learn to trade is
Patience
Determination
willingness to put the hours in both researching and actual trading

Above all enjoy your trading and good luck

[fatsam]

I'm definitely trading with a gambling insight and form background which is perversely not enjoyable. To work a profit margin only to then think I can grab a few more ££ because you have an opinion that states this ain't going to win anyway so ill chuck a few more ££in play to then w watch the profit run south.

I've traded with no opinion or form background and actually enjoyed watching the movement and responding to it. I need the discipline and maybe watch a few trades go through from pro trader's to get that insight.
From my punting days I could go weeks without any bets even if I had a form line on an event if a price was of no value.
This must be similar in trading. ...surely I need to adopt that thought process so I don't enter a market with low liquidity or movement etc.
How long do traders sit on a position. Do you ditch a bad position if it moves against you quickly abs then re take a position further up or down the ladder?

Cheers all for keeping my brain ticking. I hope anyone else with similar issues gets something out of this

Cheers
F

[fatsam]

Would a trader like Dallas and Alpha trade a couple of markets get a bad feel and knock off for the day with the knowledge there will be any number of market's avaliable throughout the weeks .

[Dallas]

Entering a market at the right time is very important and a mistake a lot of new people make is they try to trade every race - not only that they try and trade them all the same way, unfortunately the is no single approach that works on every race the same.
Im sure i once heard peter say in one of his videos something like "There is a strategy for every market and a market for every strategy"

One of the beauties of trading is the number of different approaches/styles even just within the pre-race horse markets there are numerous ways to profit from a market.

Personally my pre-race style is swing trading i never scalp and never enter the market with more than 5 mins to go, usually its not till the final 2-3mins that i open my first position.

Once i have assessed the market and confident i know which way a price will go before i enter i will also have a fixed point in my head i will exit at if the price goes against me or if the price of other runners move in such a way. Once im in i will stay in as long as i feel the market will keep moving in my favor which can be a few seconds to a few mins.
If it moves against me i put that out of my mind re-asses and if i see another opportunity re-enter.

Because of my style of trading i target only certain races today for example i only traded on 4 all day, i had one scartch, one small loss then two good wins right near the end that gave me my wages for the day - had i got involved in every market i would probebly been down quiet a bit and my profits in the final 2 races may only of just dragged me back to even. So being selective just as when you where punting will pay dividends in the long run.

[Alpha322]

Would a trader like Dallas and Alpha trade a couple of markets get a bad feel and knock off for the day with the knowledge there will be any number of market's avaliable throughout the weeks .

For me not really, like Dallas said its about overall turnover, the only time i shut down is
1) The API starts to play up (Prices freeze from BF end)

2) Sometimes when the anoying Bomber is ripping up the market. (Money that moves prices against you quite sudden)

[Dallas]

Would a trader like Dallas and Alpha trade a couple of markets get a bad feel and knock off for the day with the knowledge there will be any number of market's avaliable throughout the weeks .

Only times i would pack in early for the day is also if there is API/internet issues or in the unlikely event i was emotionally effected by a loss.

[scottydog]

I leave a little note here.

I made money gambling/punting. Won a lot over the years and lost a lot too.

I took the bet angel masterclass in October, I am currently a student again but its only 3 hours 4 mornings a week. Excluding that I trade and learn/study trading on average 14-16 hours a day. Everyday.
Even xmas day. I read allday!

Im nearly making a living from it already.. well.. my two worse days in the last 30 was a £6 loss and a £2 profit.

If you want it that bad go and get it.

[scottydog]

Also.

Even though I haven't pre race traded for very long.

My biggest advice would be.

Where ever you read... you should do this.. you shouldn't do that. Doing just that is so so hard. You have to train your mind to do it.

And the other as Dallas has said. Adapt to every market.

If your a rigid/ anal type of person then change. Every single market is different.
Swing trading and scalping is not the 2 strategies that only exist.

Experiment with the two and build your own strategie around proven ones.

[fatsam]

Cheers Scotty, dallas and Alpha.
The advice and time taken to respond is appreciated and valuable. No market is the same, and thus me looking at each event and preloading my thoughts with "i need x amount out of today " is not going to work.

Some markets throw up great trades and other markets not so.
You ca not make money from a market that has naff all in it i guess, which is common business sense let alone trading sense.

Making a few quid on the plunge on winged express in the first at towcester and then not lumping back on is a step in the right direction.

Thanks for all the input. Anything I learn will be shared and recycled to anyone who has similar issues.

Fatsam

[fatsam]

I did learn a long time ago that if you over value your tools then you wont tend to use them to best affect.

A joiner with a diamond encrusted hammer is not going to get much done with that hammer is he.

Our tool is money, and if i overvalue my money in then i wont ever be comfortable using it, so drop my input levels to get an insight into the markets before i gradually leverage up to a TOOL, Amount , i'm comfortable using.

[andrejt]

To be fair I did make a good living from outright punting and used that knowledge to trade, or try and trade.

If you're doing good, why do you want to leave punting in the first place?