How have things been on Betdaq?
If things have been far better there than on Betfair, then this could be the game changer that finally causes an exodus of traders...
Jeff
Racing this month
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
Im glad others are seeing what I've been saying since a long time ago. The easiest way to see the manipulation is around 10s where you would expect much less in real money in my opinion. I believe it started before sports book and actually since last year when 60% came in. I think the people controlling the markets since then are more aggressive and go for every single pound that comes into the market short term.
As i pointed out in the past I contacted betfair and according to my business proposal to them (not horses) they agreed I would be able to liquidates a market and self match myself to attract money. In my opinion, if this iis the case then this is not betting fair.
As i pointed out in the past I contacted betfair and according to my business proposal to them (not horses) they agreed I would be able to liquidates a market and self match myself to attract money. In my opinion, if this iis the case then this is not betting fair.
I know you have this bee in your bonnet about manipulation but you have to accept that it's been going on for some time, you were not the first to talk about and it's been discussed a lot before, have a look at this thread: -
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=770&hilit=farcical
Traders regulary self match their own orders for trading purposes, generally they don't do it to attempt to manipulate the market, but I guess sometimes that may be a side effect.
You have to accept that people are likely to want to manipulate a market but racing is not immune nor the only market where this goes on, or the worst affected. But one thing I have learnt over many years is that the market is the market, is the market. You either put up with it and work in and around it, or you don't participate. Those are the conditions of entry into any market. As long as you are aware of the fiobles, it's up to you to deal with them. I like seeing somebody showing their hand in the market, because that gives me the opportunity to oppose it.
This thread is more concerned with how the markets have changed this month.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=770&hilit=farcical
Traders regulary self match their own orders for trading purposes, generally they don't do it to attempt to manipulate the market, but I guess sometimes that may be a side effect.
You have to accept that people are likely to want to manipulate a market but racing is not immune nor the only market where this goes on, or the worst affected. But one thing I have learnt over many years is that the market is the market, is the market. You either put up with it and work in and around it, or you don't participate. Those are the conditions of entry into any market. As long as you are aware of the fiobles, it's up to you to deal with them. I like seeing somebody showing their hand in the market, because that gives me the opportunity to oppose it.
This thread is more concerned with how the markets have changed this month.
I don't think it has been THAT bad this month. Certainly worse than last but tbh I thought last month was pretty good and thats when we most likely just keep quiet 
Certainly it gets worse at times during winter.
About the manipulation, personally I don't think it's any better or worse now than it has the last 5 or so years I've been doing this. Tends to manifest itself more when things are weak. I suppose it's there in all types of trading market which is one of the reasons its so hard to learn to trade.
Days like today are a bit annoying as for me theres just too much racing on so all we get is clashes and lumpy money thrown in
Certainly it gets worse at times during winter.About the manipulation, personally I don't think it's any better or worse now than it has the last 5 or so years I've been doing this. Tends to manifest itself more when things are weak. I suppose it's there in all types of trading market which is one of the reasons its so hard to learn to trade.
Days like today are a bit annoying as for me theres just too much racing on so all we get is clashes and lumpy money thrown in
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
I have found today to be excellent. The incident with Rory Boy earlier most certainly helped but outside of that I have managed some pretty good results and it has put a smile back on my face.
As for the month I was a bit surprised when I checked my P & L for the month this morning. I try not to look at it on short time scales as I used to in the past, but when I checked it from the start of the month I was actually pleasantly surprised with what I have pulled out of the racing markets in July.
Yes I am well down on July 2011 but a couple of my good edges have now gone so that is to be expected and I haven't put in any effort to replace them due to the 60% PC deterring me, at the same time though I am up on July 2010 by some way.
Add into the mix the huge number of race meetings that we have lost and the shocking going which IMO has effected the amount being bet and I think I have been stupid enough to let things get to me mentally when they really shouldn't. I think this kind of mental downwards spiral has led to me blaming other factors other than myself, I.e. manipulation. Yes there is manipulation going on but as Baz has said I am not convinced it is massively worse than in the past now that I am looking at it with clearer vision, I have just used it as a convenient excuse for my poor trading and the poor conditions we have been dealt by the weather.
On a plus side it still shows I have plenty I can improve upon which is always good to know
As for the month I was a bit surprised when I checked my P & L for the month this morning. I try not to look at it on short time scales as I used to in the past, but when I checked it from the start of the month I was actually pleasantly surprised with what I have pulled out of the racing markets in July.
Yes I am well down on July 2011 but a couple of my good edges have now gone so that is to be expected and I haven't put in any effort to replace them due to the 60% PC deterring me, at the same time though I am up on July 2010 by some way.
Add into the mix the huge number of race meetings that we have lost and the shocking going which IMO has effected the amount being bet and I think I have been stupid enough to let things get to me mentally when they really shouldn't. I think this kind of mental downwards spiral has led to me blaming other factors other than myself, I.e. manipulation. Yes there is manipulation going on but as Baz has said I am not convinced it is massively worse than in the past now that I am looking at it with clearer vision, I have just used it as a convenient excuse for my poor trading and the poor conditions we have been dealt by the weather.
On a plus side it still shows I have plenty I can improve upon which is always good to know
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
Yes I was talking about the self matching which to me is wrong. I'm not talking about self matching bets to scratch positions, stacking up chunks of money in queues etc. However, my points are very valid and constructive in my opinion for those who come to forums to understand how markets work. When I first mentioned that I could prove self matching (showing as matched) was happening, I had many of the seasoned pros interested and only a couple who didn't ask as to how it could be happening. Therefore I think its a little harsh to single me out in a forum as having a bee in my bonnet when so many people PM about my opinions. Don't worry, there will be no more comments on the issue from me.mcfc1981 wrote:think his point was about self matching being shown as matched.
I haven't singled you out at all, that's a bit defensive TBH. I did ask for specific information on the other thread to help me drill down to what you were talking about. But I didn't get a clear response. I even dropped you an email to open a dialogue, but you didn't reply there either. So it's not as though I haven't tried to understand what you were talking about.
If you post up clear instructions on how people can see the same activity then I am sure people will be interested in having a look. Probably best to post to your original thread as this one is about something completely different.
We keep a lot of data on a number of markets so if somebody spots something, we are happy to share findings if people want to look at something specifically. It's an offer we extend to all subscribers.
If you post up clear instructions on how people can see the same activity then I am sure people will be interested in having a look. Probably best to post to your original thread as this one is about something completely different.
We keep a lot of data on a number of markets so if somebody spots something, we are happy to share findings if people want to look at something specifically. It's an offer we extend to all subscribers.
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
Although, I said i wont post again about it, as its been requested then Ill try and post it up this week in the thread that was suggested.
Ill also explain again Boing how the ability of self matching can distort a market by showing ones own money as matched amounts more than if you were just to self match your own money to take it out of a queue which would just look like someone pulling out their orders, if you get what I mean.
Euler, I have been in China most of the past few months and only get to check my personal email now and again there and I honestly thought your email was for the wrong person as the only mail I received from you said something along the lines of, "Did I see you on twitter the other day." As we dont have email communication between ourselves usually, I never replied to it as it seemed like a message meant for someone else. Appologies, for not replying if it was intended for me.
Ill also explain again Boing how the ability of self matching can distort a market by showing ones own money as matched amounts more than if you were just to self match your own money to take it out of a queue which would just look like someone pulling out their orders, if you get what I mean.
Euler, I have been in China most of the past few months and only get to check my personal email now and again there and I honestly thought your email was for the wrong person as the only mail I received from you said something along the lines of, "Did I see you on twitter the other day." As we dont have email communication between ourselves usually, I never replied to it as it seemed like a message meant for someone else. Appologies, for not replying if it was intended for me.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
How have people found the first day of the new week? More of the same or has the sun improved things?