Ah still fresh in your mind - i do like you latest response.
andy your previous response
"The event is pretty rare to be honest, it is only when a Withdrawal happens late on and there is not time for BF to remove the horse from the market before the race starts. This must happen in a very small percentage of races."
rare event was mentioned
light bulb moment in betfair trading career
Mug wrote:What was the loss before inplay?ba1000 wrote:I let it go in play
Hi Mug - thanks for the question - probably about -£20 -I had just watched a youtube video about a scattering technique of putting trades on. So I may say stakes were £2 however I was using several scattered all over the place. Unfortunately the market moved out of a sideways movement and quickly began trending in a breakout of the range. So I was down in the region of £20 anyway - so I tried my luck inplay.
Its amzing how many people on youtube are getting away with showing themselves in loss positions and and "hoping" the market turns their way either pre race or letting it go inplay.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
It is pretty rare that there is a late withdrawal. There will be a lot more in the next few months with the 2 year olds coming out so it is something to be careful of and it is essential people are aware of how the RF works.ba1000 wrote:Ah still fresh in your mind - i do like you latest response.
andy your previous response
"The event is pretty rare to be honest, it is only when a Withdrawal happens late on and there is not time for BF to remove the horse from the market before the race starts. This must happen in a very small percentage of races."
rare event was mentioned
If anyone is a bit unsure how it works now is the time to read through the BF T&C's about it:
Sections 13.5 and 13.6
http://www.betfair.com/www/betfair/GBR/ ... defined.do
All joking aside from whether or not it is rare or not (just pulling your leg Andy):
I have just looked back at the event in question at what really happened.
I was being disciplined and trading pre race and greening up before each race started!
The incident in question I HAD GREENED UP prerace!!!!! I did not let it go inplay.
The whole issue revolves around the horse being withdrawn at the off and Betfair applying a reduction factor AFTER the race!!!!!!!!!
I had already moved on to the next race thinking that I had just made a few pence however 5 minutes later a whooping £30 ish had been withdrawn from my account.
I queried this with Betfair and they are allowed do this!! I was presented with the rules and regulations. There is nothing a trader can do about it.
This is why I was so upset about it - it whiped out days of painstaking profit - and it was not my fault.
I have just looked back at the event in question at what really happened.
I was being disciplined and trading pre race and greening up before each race started!
The incident in question I HAD GREENED UP prerace!!!!! I did not let it go inplay.
The whole issue revolves around the horse being withdrawn at the off and Betfair applying a reduction factor AFTER the race!!!!!!!!!
I had already moved on to the next race thinking that I had just made a few pence however 5 minutes later a whooping £30 ish had been withdrawn from my account.
I queried this with Betfair and they are allowed do this!! I was presented with the rules and regulations. There is nothing a trader can do about it.
This is why I was so upset about it - it whiped out days of painstaking profit - and it was not my fault.
Ba1000 -
When I once lost money due to non-runners, I wrote a letter of complaint to Betfair, and they gave me something like 20 pounds as a goodwill gesture.
Worth a go...
Jeff
When I once lost money due to non-runners, I wrote a letter of complaint to Betfair, and they gave me something like 20 pounds as a goodwill gesture.
Worth a go...
Jeff
ba1000 wrote:All joking aside from whether or not it is rare or not (just pulling your leg Andy):
I have just looked back at the event in question at what really happened.
I was being disciplined and trading pre race and greening up before each race started!
The incident in question I HAD GREENED UP prerace!!!!! I did not let it go inplay.
The whole issue revolves around the horse being withdrawn at the off and Betfair applying a reduction factor AFTER the race!!!!!!!!!
I had already moved on to the next race thinking that I had just made a few pence however 5 minutes later a whooping £30 ish had been withdrawn from my account.
I queried this with Betfair and they are allowed do this!! I was presented with the rules and regulations. There is nothing a trader can do about it.
This is why I was so upset about it - it whiped out days of painstaking profit - and it was not my fault.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Orginally you said though:ba1000 wrote:I have just looked back at the event in question at what really happened.
I was being disciplined and trading pre race and greening up before each race started!
The incident in question I HAD GREENED UP prerace!!!!! I did not let it go inplay.
The whole issue revolves around the horse being withdrawn at the off and Betfair applying a reduction factor AFTER the race!!!!!!!!!
I had already moved on to the next race thinking that I had just made a few pence however 5 minutes later a whooping £30 ish had been withdrawn from my account.
I queried this with Betfair and they are allowed do this!! I was presented with the rules and regulations. There is nothing a trader can do about it.
This is why I was so upset about it - it whiped out days of painstaking profit - and it was not my fault.
It would be impossible for you to have been stung had both bets been matched pre-inplay as the reduction factor would be applied to both the back and the lay.ba1000 wrote:Dont worry - just put this out there for people to be made aware off. My first trade was placed by me manually then the next trade was placed by BetAngel - I saw it greenup (and yes i think the lay was filled just at the off ie in play) but it had greenup'ed and I moved on.
There might be a small adjustment needed by you on your greening depending if the horse had been drifting or shortening but that would be minimal.
Please provide the details of this incident as it is a Betfair first for them to have applied a RF to one bet and not another.
There really is no way at all that the reduction factor can be applied to one half of your bet and not the other if you are matched on both orders in the pre race market before Betfair withdraw the runner. You would be the first person ever (to my knowledge) for this to have happened to and you would be fully entitled to appeal the situation as it would have meant Betfair have not applied the rule correctly but because it is done automatically it is impossible for it not to have been applied correctly.
I don't know what more I can say as the situation you describe, i.e. you were matched on your back and lay pre inplay and pre withdrawal would make it impossible for the position to go from a profit to a loss.
Here is an explanation I wrote on another forum to another person who had exactly the same issue as you:
Ok here is how the Reduction Factor will work:
~ We are trading Horse A in the WIN market
~ Horse B has been withdrawn but not removed from the market by Betfair
~ Horse B has a Reduction Factor (RF) of 20%
~ We back horse A at 5.0
~ This actually means we have backed horse A at 4.0 as 5.0 minus 20% = 4.0
~ If we lay Horse A at 4.5 now for a green profit we will be okay as the 4.5 is actually 3.60 as 4.5 minus 20% = 3.60
~ So if BF now remove Horse B, both our Back and lay odds are reduced by 20% and everything is okay.
~ HOWEVER, if we have not laid Horse A before they removed Horse B we need to be aware of the RF and what it means to our back bet:
~ The RF will be applied to the Back bet so we will now have backed it at 4.0
~ If we were to do as before and lay at 4.5 we would now be in a loss position as our back bet is now at odds of 4.0 and not the original 5.0.
~ So we now need to lay at below 4.0 to make a profit.
~ As we are now laying AFTER the withdrawal, the lay bet is not subject to a RF.
~ IMPORTANT - if you are in the PLACE market the RF applies to the POTENTIAL WINNINGS and not the PRICE at which you bet at!
~ IMPORTANT - read the Betfair Rules and Regulations before committing any money to the markets and understand them and the implications:
http://www.betfair.com/www/betfair/G.../#undefined.do
It may take a while to read them and learn them but you will avoid being caught out and can in fact learn to take advantage of such situations.
This is my original post from Ten Pounder Trade thread:
ba1000 wrote:
Explanation: Backed a horse and an auto lay trade was entered. This happened just before the off. Bet Angel worked great as usual and showed that the trades were successful. I was in profit and I moved on to the next meeting. 10 to 20 mins later my account went down 30-33 pounds! I enquired with Bet"fair" as to whether they had any computer problems only to be told about a horse withdrawing at or near the off and there was no time to apply a price reduction factor being applied to the odds. This meant that the "odds" which I traded at were changed and instead off having a tiny profit i had a monster loss relative to the bank size.
I enquired again that this can not be fair only to be give a long list of the rules and regulations as follows and I quote from my email from Betfair:
"The reason that the odds on this bet have been reduced, is due to a non runner being declared after your bets have been matched as advised below. Please be advised that although your betting program was showing a profit, when scratching's like this do occur, this is the normal process in these circumstances, and can change your overall position on the race.
In this case the non runner was Laudatory which carried a reduction factor of 8.6%. These reduction factors can be found within the information box by each selection to give you an indication of what kind of percentage will be deducted in the event of it's withdrawal. They are betfair's equivalent to a bookmakers Rule 4 and are in place to protect our layers in the eventuality that the price matched does not reflect the smaller field.
A non runner explanation in reference to Horse Racing can be found with in the Rules and Regulations section under the 'About Us' Menu. Please click on the Horse image and scroll down to the betfair non-runner rule section.
For your convenience, I have included it below:
13.5 Betfair Non-Runner Rule ...."
this goes on to give details about the rules etc.
Any way I just want to to be careful, for your own information, to keep an eye on everything which is going on.
ba1000 wrote:
Explanation: Backed a horse and an auto lay trade was entered. This happened just before the off. Bet Angel worked great as usual and showed that the trades were successful. I was in profit and I moved on to the next meeting. 10 to 20 mins later my account went down 30-33 pounds! I enquired with Bet"fair" as to whether they had any computer problems only to be told about a horse withdrawing at or near the off and there was no time to apply a price reduction factor being applied to the odds. This meant that the "odds" which I traded at were changed and instead off having a tiny profit i had a monster loss relative to the bank size.
I enquired again that this can not be fair only to be give a long list of the rules and regulations as follows and I quote from my email from Betfair:
"The reason that the odds on this bet have been reduced, is due to a non runner being declared after your bets have been matched as advised below. Please be advised that although your betting program was showing a profit, when scratching's like this do occur, this is the normal process in these circumstances, and can change your overall position on the race.
In this case the non runner was Laudatory which carried a reduction factor of 8.6%. These reduction factors can be found within the information box by each selection to give you an indication of what kind of percentage will be deducted in the event of it's withdrawal. They are betfair's equivalent to a bookmakers Rule 4 and are in place to protect our layers in the eventuality that the price matched does not reflect the smaller field.
A non runner explanation in reference to Horse Racing can be found with in the Rules and Regulations section under the 'About Us' Menu. Please click on the Horse image and scroll down to the betfair non-runner rule section.
For your convenience, I have included it below:
13.5 Betfair Non-Runner Rule ...."
this goes on to give details about the rules etc.
Any way I just want to to be careful, for your own information, to keep an eye on everything which is going on.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
I really can't add anything more to this RF discussion as it is impossible for what you describe to have happened. The only possible explanation is that one of the orders was placed inplay.
When I said details I meant details of the bets that show the timings of them being placed and how the RF was applied to them.
As I said, if you placed both sides of the trade pre inplay and pre withdrawal and only one side had the RF applied you have achieved a Betfair first and I would appeal the decision as you have been done out of money due to their systems failing.
When I said details I meant details of the bets that show the timings of them being placed and how the RF was applied to them.
As I said, if you placed both sides of the trade pre inplay and pre withdrawal and only one side had the RF applied you have achieved a Betfair first and I would appeal the decision as you have been done out of money due to their systems failing.
I was posting what had happened to me to alert Harrysdog and newbies to the potential hazards if they do not know what they were doing - just like what had happened to me.
We are all watching videos of people on the web promising us money - they make it look so simple with the strategy off once you see your money greened up move on to the next market.
In fact in my case as you can see I was using Bet Angel to place the trade automatically for me and I saw it greened up and moved on. As it turned out this strategy failed. In big print the strategy should clearly indicate be careful of withdrawals watch whats happening all the time and thoroughly understand what you are getting yourself into.
Andys information is all valuable stuff. Andy obviously you write a lot of stuff - is there anything you have written which describes you trading strategy or even a video or two of you doing it?
So Harrysdog what do you think of all this? as it is all to help you see (and avoid) the hazards of trading.
As an aside for background reading I would recommend reading "The Hustlers" by Douglas Thompson - it tells of how the rich were swindled from their estates in the 50s and 60s. The main guy Aspinall was not repentant he thought if people were stupid enough to gamble their massive fortunes away then he should take their money...not so different from what we are doing i believe.
We are all watching videos of people on the web promising us money - they make it look so simple with the strategy off once you see your money greened up move on to the next market.
In fact in my case as you can see I was using Bet Angel to place the trade automatically for me and I saw it greened up and moved on. As it turned out this strategy failed. In big print the strategy should clearly indicate be careful of withdrawals watch whats happening all the time and thoroughly understand what you are getting yourself into.
Andys information is all valuable stuff. Andy obviously you write a lot of stuff - is there anything you have written which describes you trading strategy or even a video or two of you doing it?
So Harrysdog what do you think of all this? as it is all to help you see (and avoid) the hazards of trading.
As an aside for background reading I would recommend reading "The Hustlers" by Douglas Thompson - it tells of how the rich were swindled from their estates in the 50s and 60s. The main guy Aspinall was not repentant he thought if people were stupid enough to gamble their massive fortunes away then he should take their money...not so different from what we are doing i believe.
Traders are no more swindlers than are casino owners.
No-one is being deceived, except perhaps by themselves.
If adults risk their money, then they and they alone are responsible for any losses they incur.
Caveat emptor and all that!
Jeff
No-one is being deceived, except perhaps by themselves.
If adults risk their money, then they and they alone are responsible for any losses they incur.
Caveat emptor and all that!
Jeff
ba1000 wrote:
As an aside for background reading I would recommend reading "The Hustlers" by Douglas Thompson - it tells of how the rich were swindled from their estates in the 50s and 60s. The main guy Aspinall was not repentant he thought if people were stupid enough to gamble their massive fortunes away then he should take their money...not so different from what we are doing i believe.
andyfuller wrote:I really can't add anything more to this RF discussion as it is impossible for what you describe to have happened. The only possible explanation is that one of the orders was placed inplay.
When I said details I meant details of the bets that show the timings of them being placed and how the RF was applied to them.
As I said, if you placed both sides of the trade pre inplay and pre withdrawal and only one side had the RF applied you have achieved a Betfair first and I would appeal the decision as you have been done out of money due to their systems failing.
Hi Andy thank you for trying to help but all this happened last year and I am struggling to find any records. Betfair only seems to keep 3 month records.
I have kept the emails between myself and Betfair. This is part of the email Betfair sent me:
"The reason that the odds on this bet have been reduced, is due to a non runner being declared after your bets have been matched as advised below. Please be advised that although your betting program was showing a profit, when scratching's like this do occur, this is the normal process in these circumstances, and can change your overall position on the race."
Andy I found my Betfair statement from the period but of course it only shows the revised amounts ie showing the loss. So unfortunately I can not prove to anyone the numbers as you had to be there on the day to see what I saw. However I would not have raised this issue with Betfair if I had not have had an issue with it.
Hi Jeff I attended a four week trading course in the City with a trading house and one of the first lines of the course was "we are a bunch of thieves and if anyone can not handle that then its time to leave now". I will not say which one.Ferru123 wrote:Traders are no more swindlers than are casino owners.
No-one is being deceived, except perhaps by themselves.
If adults risk their money, then they and they alone are responsible for any losses they incur.
Caveat emptor and all that!
Jeff
ba1000 wrote:
As an aside for background reading I would recommend reading "The Hustlers" by Douglas Thompson - it tells of how the rich were swindled from their estates in the 50s and 60s. The main guy Aspinall was not repentant he thought if people were stupid enough to gamble their massive fortunes away then he should take their money...not so different from what we are doing i believe.
Hi guys,
Thought I might chip in my two pence as this has happened to me too some time ago. I'm not sure if the situation is the same here but in my case what happened is that my back bet was matched ten mins before off and my lay bet was matched right as it became apparent that one horse would not get loaded. Betfair did not withdraw the odds on the problem horse horse but the market immediately lurched lower on my selection and higher on the horse that was not going to race. Betfair took the view that a reduction factor could not be applied to my second bet as the market had already priced in the withdrawal. We had a row about it - can't remember the outcome... Anyways, weird things happen on Betfair time to time...
Thought I might chip in my two pence as this has happened to me too some time ago. I'm not sure if the situation is the same here but in my case what happened is that my back bet was matched ten mins before off and my lay bet was matched right as it became apparent that one horse would not get loaded. Betfair did not withdraw the odds on the problem horse horse but the market immediately lurched lower on my selection and higher on the horse that was not going to race. Betfair took the view that a reduction factor could not be applied to my second bet as the market had already priced in the withdrawal. We had a row about it - can't remember the outcome... Anyways, weird things happen on Betfair time to time...