someone has an advantage

[steven1976]

Jeff, imagine a market that has money both sides of the market. If this was just all one persons money, what do you think would happen if you entered a bet either side? They would simply move against your money to put you in a loosing position.

If they couldn't self match, it would look fake and people would see the market maker just dropping his own money. If it looks like it was money matched, the crowd would jump on the back of it and follow (if any) supporting the position. Eventually the trader would sell out or the market would reposition so they could sell out at a profit.

There is still obviously risk, but with enough cash you know 99 times out of 100 you have a massive advantage on Joe public in my opinion

[steven1976]

Jeff, Im not sure i actually answered your question. Yes, self matching can create an impression of something happening and leave gaps where people believe opportunities are.

[steven1976]

Self-matching would inhibit true price discovery as there appears to be action and money waiting to be matched when in fact nothing is happening.

Self matching is very short term. We are not talking about a horse at 1.6 going to 3s or 4s. We are talking about someone entering a 2k back bet at 1.6 and it moving to 1.65 for example.

Anyway, my resaerch was to show that it is possible to self match. Take from that as you wish.

[freddy]

Not sure if im following this correctly,
may have missed the point as ive only had about 2 hours sleep

but everyone can self match, it just not shown in the matched totals.

are you saying betfair made a special alowance to have you self match money and for it to be added to the total matched ammounts.

[Euler]

Must admit to be confused by this thread? People self match all the time don't they? Unless I have mis-understood what is being talked about here?

[Iron]

People self match all the time don't they?

Let's say, for the sake of simplicity, that we have a ladder with no money in the queue waiting to be matched. I put back order in for 100 pounds at 4.0, which I then lay. Is that classed as self-matching, would I be able to do it, and would Betfair show an additional 200 pounds as having been matched at 4.0 as a result of my bet with myself?

Jeff

[freddy]

If you match yourself it just doesnt show in the matched totals.

so in your example it would show nothing matched at 4.00 whatsoever.

It's as if it never happend .

[lewismbet]

I had assumed that the above poster was referring to the fact that the advantage someone had was from their special treatment allowing them to show a matched volume on the charts when in fact there was only a self-match that would cancel our bets normally.

I would consider that this could be abusive and would allow for manipulation of a few ticks either way but it requires markets with gaps to fill or poor depth and while prices can be massaged you cannot stop a price going as a trader if you are against outright betters who do not wish to liquidate their position pre-off but are happy to keep taking the 'value' you offer

[andyfuller]

The most simplest method of getting it to show in the charts is to do it between two of your own accounts.

Yes you would be liable for commission but that would simply be offset against your Premium Charge as that is calculated across all your accounts. So for a 60% PC payer it would be a very handy strategy to use at no cost probably.

[andyfuller]

I had assumed that the above poster was referring to the fact that the advantage someone had was from their special treatment allowing them to show a matched volume on the charts when in fact there was only a self-match that would cancel our bets normally.

I agree.

[SamWilson82]

I don't really see what the problem is.

If you believe that the matched amounts are being skewed or manipulated then simply don't use market depth or bet volume as an indicator.

I agree with Lewismbet's comment;

"you cannot stop a price going as a trader if you are against outright betters who do not wish to liquidate their position pre-off but are happy to keep taking the 'value' you offer"

IMO We should be more worried about Betfair trading on their own markets and being able to see and exploit other traders open positions. You cant put anything past them these days.

[mcfc1981]

if u did it on 2 of your own accounts then reversed the trade u wouldnt pay any commission but it would still show as matched.

[steven1976]

if u did it on 2 of your own accounts then reversed the trade u wouldnt pay any commission but it would still show as matched.

This is correct. Im sure it wouldn't be too hard to make a tool in excel to allow you to calculate this easily to always make a counter bet and hedge against yourself and also take into account money which is not your own to take profit out of the market. However BF pointed out to me, usually they look out for this type of behaviour and therefore I presume they do not allow it unless you have an agreement with them. It could however be the case and BF havent picked up on matching the accounts or turn a blind eye.

Same wrote
"I don't really see what the problem is.

If you believe that the matched amounts are being skewed or manipulated then simply don't use market depth or bet volume as an indicator."

This I agree with, but I would imagine a lot of people still trade looking at matched volumes, weight of money etc... and therefore they tend to follow what is happening in the charts.

The easiest way I can think of trying to explain is the case of the bomber. You need to think outside the box a little. It may seem unrealistic but there is just the off chance the following could happen.

Example
Say the market is currently at a back price of 4.4 with 25K spread evenly at 4.3, 4.2, 4.1 and 4.0 and the same is evenly spread above. Lets say for the example sake, this is all one entities money (BF or someone else it doesn't matter) and they are sat waiting for new money to arrive. Lets say someone offers a 5K lay order into the market at 4.2. Immediately the market maker could drop a 50 K order into the market pushing it down to 3.9, taking 25K of their own money, 5K of the new money and the leaving 20K-30K sat in the market showing for everyone to see. This therefore appears to show lots of money has been matched and some crazy guy with to much money is backing like crazy. It is risky but if someone is not willing to put up a liability of 70-80K to oppose the 20-30 K still sat in the queue then the 5K will have to sell out their position or as i do when I see the bomber around I would jump in front of the 20K-30K sat in the queue and benefit from it which could in turn hold down the market whilst they drip out their profit from the 5K.

The above is an extreme example but just one way that self matching could offer manipulation.

I actually believe that manipulation mainly goes on at the front of the market in a much less obvious way that requires basically 3 positions in the market.

I also personally believe it is not BF trading the markets in this way. In order to do so, they would need to pay salary to people and would also need people who really understand the markets and still there is always risk that someone could come in with a big bet they can not sell or the staff mess up the position etc.. It would make more sense to have someone else do it for them because at the end of the day they then have someone working for free for them and earning them 60% if they are paying top commission. The sooner they can get 60% out of the market, the sooner their customers need to add more money to their accounts and therefore they sooner realise their profits for their investors. Therefore if it is beneficial for BF to allow self matching they may turn a blind eye.

[CaerMyrddin]

If this is true, it can have a nasty effect on betfair. Bet against yourself not a bookie?

Regarding the bomber, this is not the case, as many try and get matched against him.

[rubysglory]

I find it easiest to see, on very weak markets such as Ausy racing where out of the blue on a market with 14K matched 3K will suddenly match just as i enter a couple of quid

I hear what you are saying and your instincts may well be right. With regards to Australian markets, I would tread with caution however. Market volume (usually on the Lay side ) will often increase by upwards of 50% over a period of seconds when an market moving overlay appears with odds otherwise being offered by the on course bookmakers.

rg