Posting this in the newbie section because I'm still learning these basic nuances. After 6 months of starting trading I can now go Mon-Fri mostly having reasonable results either from manual trading (time permitting) or running automated trading when other things get in the way. However, EVERY single Saturday what worked for the rest of the week, now turns to crap. So what exactly is happening ? I know I have to adapt, but I can't see what's so different. Any pointers gratefully received.
Thanks
OK, I give up, what is it with Saturday racing ?
)Working full time i cannot trade much in the week, only evenings and weekends.. Have being doing this for 10 months.Will i continue to use Bet Angel ? Yes i will. I see it all as a learning experience. 2 years ago i took up the guitar as always wanted to learn how to play.
My fingers hurt. Felt like giving up numerous times. Never thought i would be able to play barre chords. I practiced a bit each day and learnt from others through youtube lessons.
After a few months i learnt to play my first song "Eight Days a Week". With regard to trading i see it all as a learning experience. Discipline is the key. Not trying to trade every race. Be careful going inplay. Execution and when to get into the market and get out. Accepting a loss. Saturdays i find the easiest to trade through scalping. I havent traded enough during the week so cannot really comment as to how the markets behave.
If i could make £50 - £60 a day i would pack my job in and trade full time but i cant.
For me maybe automation is the way to go. On my two days off i don't want to be sat in front of a computer screen manually trading.
My fingers hurt. Felt like giving up numerous times. Never thought i would be able to play barre chords. I practiced a bit each day and learnt from others through youtube lessons.
After a few months i learnt to play my first song "Eight Days a Week". With regard to trading i see it all as a learning experience. Discipline is the key. Not trying to trade every race. Be careful going inplay. Execution and when to get into the market and get out. Accepting a loss. Saturdays i find the easiest to trade through scalping. I havent traded enough during the week so cannot really comment as to how the markets behave.
If i could make £50 - £60 a day i would pack my job in and trade full time but i cant.
For me maybe automation is the way to go. On my two days off i don't want to be sat in front of a computer screen manually trading.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 10525
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
Isn't this just the pain before the gain, the graft to learn the craft, the tangled fingers on the way to playing Little Wing?Abraquay wrote: On my two days off i don't want to be sat in front of a computer screen manually trading.
Maybe just do 4 hours instead of two whole days? As you said it's like learning the guitar, 1 hour of focused practice tops a whole day of fiddling around.
Maybe have a look at the concept of 'effortful study' (horrendously named), this argues that what matters is not experience per se but focus. That's why it is possible for enthusiasts to spend tens of thousands of hours playing chess or golf or a musical instrument without ever advancing beyond the amateur level and why a properly trained student can overtake them in a relatively short time.
Break out of that 'work is counted in days' employee mentality, try and aim for maximum effectivness in minimum time.
Looking at your results (which look good), I think you should have packed it in at about 4:30. Those -5, -4 , +3.39 and + 6.20 look like the work of a tired man. Don't expect to focus fully for more than a few hours until more of what you're doing becomes second nature. Especially if you're still doing the 9-5. It looks like you've traded everything that moved for over 7 hours, everything from nurserys to handicaps, UK and US...can you look back and say what you learned about each market?
...don't mean to go on and on Abraquay but this change of mindset worked wonders for me.
@ scesc are you mainly a swing trader. I wonder if that's mainly what you do then perhaps the less liquidity in the markets suit this style more during the week day racing. On Saturdays as Abraquay has said a scalping style can be used to good effect, might be something to consider. On the other had it could be just natural variance, unless you have a lot of Saturday racing to compare with week day then it could be difficult to come to any conclusions.
@ Abraquay, nice analogy to bring in the musical instrument example. When I tried trading financial markets years ago, I was struck by how many successful traders played a musical instrument. Could have been coincidence but I wouldn't be at all surprised if similar parts of the brain are used for both trading and making music. I used to play the drums, they are not really regarded by many as a musical instrument so that's probably another reason why I failed lol.
@ ShaunWhite, I guess what your saying is that quality is better than quantity when it comes to learning to trade. I can't argue with that makes good sense to me.
@ Abraquay, nice analogy to bring in the musical instrument example. When I tried trading financial markets years ago, I was struck by how many successful traders played a musical instrument. Could have been coincidence but I wouldn't be at all surprised if similar parts of the brain are used for both trading and making music. I used to play the drums, they are not really regarded by many as a musical instrument so that's probably another reason why I failed lol.
@ ShaunWhite, I guess what your saying is that quality is better than quantity when it comes to learning to trade. I can't argue with that makes good sense to me.
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JollyGreen
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
My input on this.
I experienced this quite a lot when starting out until I decided to skip Saturdays. I have always been a swing trader apart from a brief period in the early 2001-2003 period where the markets were more conducive to scalping. I am not going to make the age old comment "The markets ain't what they used to be" because it falls into the "statin' the bleedin' obvious" category!
The markets have changed and they continue to change but one thing is certain, scalping is not a viable option unless you can find really suitable markets and then take advantage.
My advice to anyone starting out or even a novice trader, is to learn how the markets move and when. @scesc It appears you are a swing trader so more power to your elbow. What you need to do is review what you do midweek that works and then compare it to the attempts you make in a Saturday market.
My advice is to be even more patient on a Saturday because some of the early moves can look good but fall apart quickly with a reverse. This will often catch out a lot of traders, heck, I get caught myself. Sod's Law then says the move does go the way you wanted and some!
Yesterday there was a few examples of that happening. Curlew River 13:50 offered some good moves but they were erratic at times until the money really started to hit market.
Ayr 14:05 Was a cracker when the steam on Master of Finance came. I made a couple of errors in that market which resulted in smaller profits for those trades. I can imagine it would have caught out newer traders because it moved in quite strongly to almost 2.0 only to drift again. My experience told me it was definitely going to steam but I knew it needed the full money flow to do it. When that came it steamed into ~1.80 but it was very late.
Practice being more patient and don't get upset if you miss a couple of trends. Eventually you will learn to spot better moves and then your confidence will grow along with your experience.
HTH
JG
I experienced this quite a lot when starting out until I decided to skip Saturdays. I have always been a swing trader apart from a brief period in the early 2001-2003 period where the markets were more conducive to scalping. I am not going to make the age old comment "The markets ain't what they used to be" because it falls into the "statin' the bleedin' obvious" category!
The markets have changed and they continue to change but one thing is certain, scalping is not a viable option unless you can find really suitable markets and then take advantage.
My advice to anyone starting out or even a novice trader, is to learn how the markets move and when. @scesc It appears you are a swing trader so more power to your elbow. What you need to do is review what you do midweek that works and then compare it to the attempts you make in a Saturday market.
My advice is to be even more patient on a Saturday because some of the early moves can look good but fall apart quickly with a reverse. This will often catch out a lot of traders, heck, I get caught myself. Sod's Law then says the move does go the way you wanted and some!
Yesterday there was a few examples of that happening. Curlew River 13:50 offered some good moves but they were erratic at times until the money really started to hit market.
Ayr 14:05 Was a cracker when the steam on Master of Finance came. I made a couple of errors in that market which resulted in smaller profits for those trades. I can imagine it would have caught out newer traders because it moved in quite strongly to almost 2.0 only to drift again. My experience told me it was definitely going to steam but I knew it needed the full money flow to do it. When that came it steamed into ~1.80 but it was very late.
Practice being more patient and don't get upset if you miss a couple of trends. Eventually you will learn to spot better moves and then your confidence will grow along with your experience.
HTH
JG
JollyGreen is right
Also check out "cutting your losses." - all over the web in various guises, not to be confused with "stop losses". I just hedge (red- up) and get out when it's a "bad" race and see if I can rescue anything from in-play.(with exceedingly small pre-sets on the stakes.My advice is to be even more patient on a Saturday because some of the early moves can look good but fall apart quickly with a reverse. This will often catch out a lot of traders, heck,
Interesting that the general consensus is that I'm swing trading, but I'm actually scalping (mostly favourites). I can get a good run going midweek, but just can't get the same results on a Saturday. It almost feels like the markets bounce around too much or some serious money comes in for something and my nice smooth scalping on the favourite gets ruined. I'm sure it's something I just have to get used to, but I was just wondering if there could be something blindingly obvious on a Saturday that I'm missing. Thanks all for the replies so far.
Some fundemental differences with saturdays compared to other weeks days include
Better quality of racing which get better TV coverage and in turn attracts more liquidity to the markets and a larger percentage of this being 'Real' money as opposed to 'Trader' money fighting against each other which is often the case on the weaker midweek markets.
The number of races is another factor with many races clashing the big money for a market will mostly come after the last has finished this can be as late as the final seconds and turn the market on its head as JG said in his earlier post. Whereas midweek days with a nice even gap of 10-15 mins between races means the money arrives in a bit more of a stready fashion.
So throw all that into the mix and saturday markets will have very unique characteristics not seen through most weekdays.
Better quality of racing which get better TV coverage and in turn attracts more liquidity to the markets and a larger percentage of this being 'Real' money as opposed to 'Trader' money fighting against each other which is often the case on the weaker midweek markets.
The number of races is another factor with many races clashing the big money for a market will mostly come after the last has finished this can be as late as the final seconds and turn the market on its head as JG said in his earlier post. Whereas midweek days with a nice even gap of 10-15 mins between races means the money arrives in a bit more of a stready fashion.
So throw all that into the mix and saturday markets will have very unique characteristics not seen through most weekdays.
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cybernet69
I actually find Saturday's to be very profitable. But then I am generally staying well away from the 1st and 2nd favourites. In certain races the 3rd favourite tends to drift by upto 10 ticks in the last few minutes.
I do not agree with what Jolly Green has said. I respect that he has been around a lot longer than I but how I read what he has said is that you need to be very selective as to which races you can/should scalp as scalping every market is not viable. My approach is exactly the one that he says is not viable and I have had good results with it since I have started. The reason I choose to go down the path of scalping every market is that it goes against the general wisdom that seems to be that swing trading and automation are the only real way to make money from the markets. So whilst everyone else is trying to swing and automate the market forgets about scalping and creates an opportunity. I know Peter Webb is a big believer in going against the crowd and it seems to be working for me. I think Dallas's post was the best about the issues with regards to Saturday markets.JollyGreen wrote:The markets have changed and they continue to change but one thing is certain, scalping is not a viable option unless you can find really suitable markets and then take advantage.
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SeaHorseRacing
- Posts: 2896
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 7:06 pm
I admire your curiosity and interest to find a strategy yourself. It is very nice to hear. You have to find your what works for you. We all have different personalities. This is why some will never make it as a trader. There is no rule to follow. there are "general" proven strategies.PDC wrote:I do not agree with what Jolly Green has said. I respect that he has been around a lot longer than I but how I read what he has said is that you need to be very selective as to which races you can/should scalp as scalping every market is not viable. My approach is exactly the one that he says is not viable and I have had good results with it since I have started. The reason I choose to go down the path of scalping every market is that it goes against the general wisdom that seems to be that swing trading and automation are the only real way to make money from the markets. So whilst everyone else is trying to swing and automate the market forgets about scalping and creates an opportunity. I know Peter Webb is a big believer in going against the crowd and it seems to be working for me. I think Dallas's post was the best about the issues with regards to Saturday markets.JollyGreen wrote:The markets have changed and they continue to change but one thing is certain, scalping is not a viable option unless you can find really suitable markets and then take advantage.
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spreadbetting
- Posts: 3140
- Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm
PDC wrote:I do not agree with what Jolly Green has said. I respect that he has been around a lot longer than I but how I read what he has said is that you need to be very selective as to which races you can/should scalp as scalping every market is not viable. My approach is exactly the one that he says is not viable and I have had good results with it since I have started. The reason I choose to go down the path of scalping every market is that it goes against the general wisdom that seems to be that swing trading and automation are the only real way to make money from the markets. So whilst everyone else is trying to swing and automate the market forgets about scalping and creates an opportunity. I know Peter Webb is a big believer in going against the crowd and it seems to be working for me. I think Dallas's post was the best about the issues with regards to Saturday markets.JollyGreen wrote:The markets have changed and they continue to change but one thing is certain, scalping is not a viable option unless you can find really suitable markets and then take advantage.
I think you're reading too much into what he's saying. Plenty of us can and do make money scalping each and every market but it's not neccessarily the easiest and maybe not most profitable option available to you in certain markets. If you're making a decent living simply scalping carry on.
Personally I think there are many reasons why Saturday behaves differently but I put it mainly down to the way liquidity enters the markets as you have increased volume from the average Joe on his day off to the increases in numbers of races.
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SeaHorseRacing
- Posts: 2896
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 7:06 pm
Speaking from experience. I used to struggle on Saturdays. Now it is my best day. I believe you can make an excellent living from trading just Saturdays
My advice:
Really organise your Saturdays. Watch out for races that clash and target the big races.
If you have a large bank Saturdays liquidity offers so much opportunity. Sticking to the quality races with a little bank only caters for small profits
Some Saturday I only manage to trade 6/7 races the whole day. Yet I make more from them then I do for the whole week.
Depending on your strategy try to stick to quality. Even if that means your only churning one trade/ scalp a race.
Stick to quality. I do believe you can, however IMO on a Saturday. Organise, patients and execute. Its all about the quality, once you have the bank and experience you will love Saturdays.
My advice:
Really organise your Saturdays. Watch out for races that clash and target the big races.
If you have a large bank Saturdays liquidity offers so much opportunity. Sticking to the quality races with a little bank only caters for small profits
Some Saturday I only manage to trade 6/7 races the whole day. Yet I make more from them then I do for the whole week.
Depending on your strategy try to stick to quality. Even if that means your only churning one trade/ scalp a race.
Stick to quality. I do believe you can, however IMO on a Saturday. Organise, patients and execute. Its all about the quality, once you have the bank and experience you will love Saturdays.