Alright guys Im just about to set everything up to go live with real money. I have traded on practise mode for around 9 months after blowing my first bank in a matter of days (only a small tester bank). I now feel ready after putting back my start date until now due to having to re-learn and adapt to these more steady flater markets which are totally different to the winter markets I was starting to do quite well with.
Im going to deposit a grand into my bf account and sign up to atr as up until now I have just traded the ladder and tried to get out in time. I really just hope I can keep my flow going when I finally do login into the live settings on ba and hopefully get a good start to my trading. I feel quite consistent now and usually just jump in and out of bounces, so I just sit and wait for them. I dont really scalp but sometimes just take a tick. Sometimes I can find a nice swing but my usual style is just nipping in and out of a bounce and trying to take as much as i can depending how strong or weak i assume things are. In the winter I looked for more full out reversals and set higher stops but now im not really looking for big reversal swings and am happy to wait and see how things go. I finnally got rid of my bad habbit of having to be involved in a trade as soon as i opened a market. I think I can be profitable if i fully focus as my results on paper are not to bad but could be a little better.
My questions gentlemen if you would be so kind is how much money do you throw of your banks on a market? or how much should I expose myself to with a grand? I have the new 1.47 now and have the back lay liabilty set up now but I find myself putting quite alot more than half my bank on one side and try to reserv myself enough 10% / 20% to start greening the otherside and releasing more as I go. I know this is probably not wise? Also sometimes I admit I do get abit carried away and click a few more orders than i should and by doing so, risk not having much for my exit bets. my biggest fear is blindly and stupidly clicking and without thinking somehow managing to max out my bf balance and not having anything left to start exiting. When your in practise mode sometimes you might not be as strict i think. Maybe when I am live I will not do it, but I honestly dont know as I havent traded live for 9 months. Atm my new stakes are set at 26, 52 and 104 and thats it and after ocasionally going a little bit wild with clicking on 104 stakes, it can run away quickly but not by that much than I should. I usually drop a few bets around where i want to enter and sometimes find a bit more value or ease in. is it better to just put one bigger bet like £500(liabilty) and then break up the stakes on the other side? maybe i could get used to trying to get one bet in the market? or maybe as I go live I will be a bit more strict with how much exposure I take or how fast i click. Do you think its a good idea for me to try and get a new habbit of putting a £100 bet way out of the money and way out of the range on the blue side of the favourite? a sort of reserve bet that if by some idotic move and by assuming i have found the holy grail of sweet spots somehow max out my bank clicking like crazy at least then I will have something to work out with?-
Also i have tried global settings and just cant seem to get it set up. I wanted stop on opening bet but everytime I try to work it out it doesnt seem to pan out to well. By ticks or %. Not sure if its because I was changing the settings around with greening and offsetting and sometimes changing them while working in the same markets. But sometimes the stop on opening bet had a mind of its own and would open positions after me greening (sometimes profitable but other times not) and sometimes the stop would not go off. Maybe its something I was doing. it was messing up my results in the end so I just had to switch it off. I had it almost going smoothly with offesting greening and stop but I had to keep canceling all the offset bets, canceling the bets isnt that much bother but its not as smooth as I want it. I know offsetting would benifit me even if i do cancel them as it keeps enough for the other side. But offseting doesnt work for me as i exit at anypoint i feel is right. And I usually exit little bits at a time and too many offset bets doesnt really firing into the market is a little distracting. I know some of you just stop manually but I do like to try and remember (most of the tme) to hit a right click stop loss around five ticks out and alot of the time try to stop or ease out before if I think the market has changed. How do you have your global or stops set up?
Sorry for the long post fellas and thanks in advance for any help.
Going live with my trading......
Also I realise that my right click stops right now would not stop me out if I got carried away on one side of the book. I know need to cut back my stakes and take a hit on potential profit and build up a little slower to start. But how much is enough?
Aquaclear
I can't help with much of what you have written because, quite frankly, I didn't understand it because, basically, trees have a higher IQ then I and also because I have been a dedicated layer these past 14 years.
There is one thing that I can possibly help with though and that is what percentage of your bank you should risk per trade. It's a thing that, I've seen, a lot of people get wrong.
I'm going to assume that when you were testing, you kept good records.
Assume that, in the worst case scenario, you will lose all of your stake on each trade.
From your records, determine the LLR (Longest Losing Run).
Multiply your LLR by 3.5 to give the LLR Multiplier.
Divide your bank by the LLR Multiplier calculated above to give the stake on each trade.
Here's an example:
LLR = 10.
LLR Multiplier = 3.5 x 10 = 35.
Bank = £1,000.
Stake = 1000/35 = £28.57.
It doesn't sound like a big stake, does it? That's because it isn't. It's designed to protect your bank based upon your own actual ability.
Somewhere in your screed above you stated that you lost all of your initial bank. That's because the proportion of the bank that you were risking per trade was beyond your ability (no criticism intended).
Your LLR is measure of your ability. Use it to determine your ability and stake.
Hope that this helps in some way.
I can't help with much of what you have written because, quite frankly, I didn't understand it because, basically, trees have a higher IQ then I and also because I have been a dedicated layer these past 14 years.
There is one thing that I can possibly help with though and that is what percentage of your bank you should risk per trade. It's a thing that, I've seen, a lot of people get wrong.
I'm going to assume that when you were testing, you kept good records.
Assume that, in the worst case scenario, you will lose all of your stake on each trade.
From your records, determine the LLR (Longest Losing Run).
Multiply your LLR by 3.5 to give the LLR Multiplier.
Divide your bank by the LLR Multiplier calculated above to give the stake on each trade.
Here's an example:
LLR = 10.
LLR Multiplier = 3.5 x 10 = 35.
Bank = £1,000.
Stake = 1000/35 = £28.57.
It doesn't sound like a big stake, does it? That's because it isn't. It's designed to protect your bank based upon your own actual ability.
Somewhere in your screed above you stated that you lost all of your initial bank. That's because the proportion of the bank that you were risking per trade was beyond your ability (no criticism intended).
Your LLR is measure of your ability. Use it to determine your ability and stake.
Hope that this helps in some way.
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CLOWNSHOES
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:04 pm
Theres alot of people on the forum better placed than me to give you advice but id suggest that going from practice mode to 500 liability is a bit crazy .... we have skipped so many nice numbers $25, $50,$100,$200 etc. IMO you should seek to progress through these numbers naturally .... too many people shoot for twitter greens and bust themselves ... its like people need to be using massive stakes to justify betfair as a real job. I dont see the point of putting down 50% of your balance, crapping it, getting flustered, bailing early, then usually the trade turns out sound, you get mad because you took a red but should have held on. All the while if you were using a $50 youd have probably eeked a few pounds out the market and continued your natural progression.
Firstly I hope you are prepared to lose that £1000 bank as the probability is that you will likely lose it sooner rather than later in the position you are in. No offence but you sound like you still have a lot to learn.
Personally this whole thing about only using a small amount of your bank per trade is nonsense in my opinion. This isn't like trading stocks or financials where you may have a portfolio of simultaneous open trades and some trades last days, months or years.
On Betfair it is vital to use your bank to maximise your profit whilst obviously being aware and managing the risk.
You shouldn't be in a position where worst case scenario of a trade is you lose all your stake, that is gambling. Worst case scenario you accept a loss which should be a % of your stake/liability (which could be your entire bank), so you may have all £1000 on the line but worst case scenario is you lose £20.
You don't need to worry about having money left to exit as once you are in you are effectively cashing out when you close any position.
But I am not saying use your entire bank on every trade. One important thing to consider when choosing stake size is how much money there is in the market in case you need to exit sharply. If you need to get £1000 matched to close your position but there is only £100 in each of the closest 3 prices waiting to get matched then you are in a really risky position. Hope that makes sense.
You sound like you have been patient enough before going live with real money again but I'm not convinced your close to where you want to be. As previous members have said on this forum many times, you will learn more and quicker using real money rather than practice mode. So really your proper learning starts now.
Good luck though.
Personally this whole thing about only using a small amount of your bank per trade is nonsense in my opinion. This isn't like trading stocks or financials where you may have a portfolio of simultaneous open trades and some trades last days, months or years.
On Betfair it is vital to use your bank to maximise your profit whilst obviously being aware and managing the risk.
You shouldn't be in a position where worst case scenario of a trade is you lose all your stake, that is gambling. Worst case scenario you accept a loss which should be a % of your stake/liability (which could be your entire bank), so you may have all £1000 on the line but worst case scenario is you lose £20.
You don't need to worry about having money left to exit as once you are in you are effectively cashing out when you close any position.
But I am not saying use your entire bank on every trade. One important thing to consider when choosing stake size is how much money there is in the market in case you need to exit sharply. If you need to get £1000 matched to close your position but there is only £100 in each of the closest 3 prices waiting to get matched then you are in a really risky position. Hope that makes sense.
You sound like you have been patient enough before going live with real money again but I'm not convinced your close to where you want to be. As previous members have said on this forum many times, you will learn more and quicker using real money rather than practice mode. So really your proper learning starts now.
Good luck though.
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iambic_pentameter
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 1:24 pm
I'm certainly not here to rain on your parade, OP but some observations that I hope will help you.
Firstly, have you got savings to cover your living expenses for at least 6 months or do you have another source of income?
I ask this, because if you are relying on earning from day one, you are going to put yourself under a huge amount of pressure. And if you do that, things can get out of shape very quicky.
Secondly, are you profitable using a £50 bank or a £100 bank? If you are not, then it is very unlikely that a £1000 bank is going to be any different.
The other consideration you need to have, is that let's say you have a trade that goes base over apex. If you are not disciplined, there is a very real chance that you could go on tilt and chase that loss and ultimately blow the bank.
Sure, with a £50 bank you won't make much money but critically, you won't lose much money either.
As for staking, it depends on the market and what you are comfortable with - no one can answer this for you. Personally, I would look to open a position with 5% or 10% of your bank and add to it as the position improves. Depending on the market / volatility, you shouldn't want to take more than 5 ticks as a loss.
Knowledge and emotional discipline are the key factors when trading - you could give an experienced trader £100 and he will do better than an inexperienced trader with £1000.
Sadly, knowledge only comes from going through the market cycles - you need to know what is likely to happend and that only comes from experence.
Trading - whether on sports / financials is not get rich quick. It's a slow process but as you will see from some of the the full-timers on here, it's definitely possible.
If you've not already done so, I'd suggest reading JollyGreen's guides for newbies:
http://www.betangel.com/forum/viewforum ... 59926becd0
^^ They are sticky posts on this forum.
Best of luck.
Iambic
Firstly, have you got savings to cover your living expenses for at least 6 months or do you have another source of income?
I ask this, because if you are relying on earning from day one, you are going to put yourself under a huge amount of pressure. And if you do that, things can get out of shape very quicky.
Secondly, are you profitable using a £50 bank or a £100 bank? If you are not, then it is very unlikely that a £1000 bank is going to be any different.
The other consideration you need to have, is that let's say you have a trade that goes base over apex. If you are not disciplined, there is a very real chance that you could go on tilt and chase that loss and ultimately blow the bank.
Sure, with a £50 bank you won't make much money but critically, you won't lose much money either.
As for staking, it depends on the market and what you are comfortable with - no one can answer this for you. Personally, I would look to open a position with 5% or 10% of your bank and add to it as the position improves. Depending on the market / volatility, you shouldn't want to take more than 5 ticks as a loss.
Knowledge and emotional discipline are the key factors when trading - you could give an experienced trader £100 and he will do better than an inexperienced trader with £1000.
Sadly, knowledge only comes from going through the market cycles - you need to know what is likely to happend and that only comes from experence.
Trading - whether on sports / financials is not get rich quick. It's a slow process but as you will see from some of the the full-timers on here, it's definitely possible.
If you've not already done so, I'd suggest reading JollyGreen's guides for newbies:
http://www.betangel.com/forum/viewforum ... 59926becd0
^^ They are sticky posts on this forum.
Best of luck.
Iambic
Hey Guys,
Thank you for your input and comments.
Anna, I apologise if my post last night was a long one and a bit confusing
it was a bit late when I was typing it and I didn't check or edit before I posted.
I think you are more referring to a laying strategy stake size as you mentioned that you have been booking making for 14 years. I have no doubt if you have been doing this for that long that you are quite astute in the betting industry. To be honest, I am a bit of a novice with horses and although I do enjoy the sport I actually know very little, other than some jockey and trainers names and I have access to the form etc like everyone else (which I don't really pay much attention to unless I spot a bargin).
What I have done is just learn how the markets move and feel kind of able to emerse myself in and around the right side of the price (most of the time) and I feel I'm able to just 'feel the markets'.
I think Renton has hit the nail on the head a bit more as I need to be using my bank to its fullest potential. I know many that have tried before me and have fallen fast like the winter wheat and ending up losing the lot. I know it's been said before but.... I don't intend to loose this real bank and I have put in the hours just sat at my computer clicking buttons and learning. I have traded almost everyday and traded thoushands of markets in practise mode. I have traded dogs, tennis and sometimes the American markets. I feel like I can be profitable in all of them if I stay strict and in control. I'm not being cocky and do not think that I could ever get anywhere close to the infamous Mr Webb or Adam Heathcote, I know maybe I will fall flat on my face and fail, I know that. But at this point in time I Feel a need to be positive and enjoy this experience of starting. I have waited quite a while to start this. I'm positive I will be drawing profit within the first month.
I know it's safer to use smaller stakes but I feel ready to 'use my bank' to its full potential like Renton said. But I think throwing 80% on one side might not be wise as I need to really be able to exit in one move (manually or by a stop) if I need to. With a practise bank it's unlimited so even though I feel like I have been sticking to what would be my start bank maybe it's to much. However I'm certain that after a few profitable days that I would not have to worry about exposing my start bank to much as I do not expect I will scale up and/or have no plans to go above what I have been practising with for quite a while at least.
I don't intend to go inplay or let losses run into the red to much. I have worked on my mistakes and feel more in control over them. But there was a time not so long ago that I still made them, if I focus 100% on what I'm doing at all times I can reduce them greatly. If I had used real money from the start my loses would be well into five figures by now. I just kept going and learning and trying to get better now I feel very close and confident.
Thanks for the wishes of luck guys I hope this goes well and I can be part of this industry and community......
Thanks
Alex
Ps Bet angel rocks.... and peter is a legend
Thank you for your input and comments.
Anna, I apologise if my post last night was a long one and a bit confusing
it was a bit late when I was typing it and I didn't check or edit before I posted.I think you are more referring to a laying strategy stake size as you mentioned that you have been booking making for 14 years. I have no doubt if you have been doing this for that long that you are quite astute in the betting industry. To be honest, I am a bit of a novice with horses and although I do enjoy the sport I actually know very little, other than some jockey and trainers names and I have access to the form etc like everyone else (which I don't really pay much attention to unless I spot a bargin).
What I have done is just learn how the markets move and feel kind of able to emerse myself in and around the right side of the price (most of the time) and I feel I'm able to just 'feel the markets'.
I think Renton has hit the nail on the head a bit more as I need to be using my bank to its fullest potential. I know many that have tried before me and have fallen fast like the winter wheat and ending up losing the lot. I know it's been said before but.... I don't intend to loose this real bank and I have put in the hours just sat at my computer clicking buttons and learning. I have traded almost everyday and traded thoushands of markets in practise mode. I have traded dogs, tennis and sometimes the American markets. I feel like I can be profitable in all of them if I stay strict and in control. I'm not being cocky and do not think that I could ever get anywhere close to the infamous Mr Webb or Adam Heathcote, I know maybe I will fall flat on my face and fail, I know that. But at this point in time I Feel a need to be positive and enjoy this experience of starting. I have waited quite a while to start this. I'm positive I will be drawing profit within the first month.
I know it's safer to use smaller stakes but I feel ready to 'use my bank' to its full potential like Renton said. But I think throwing 80% on one side might not be wise as I need to really be able to exit in one move (manually or by a stop) if I need to. With a practise bank it's unlimited so even though I feel like I have been sticking to what would be my start bank maybe it's to much. However I'm certain that after a few profitable days that I would not have to worry about exposing my start bank to much as I do not expect I will scale up and/or have no plans to go above what I have been practising with for quite a while at least.
I don't intend to go inplay or let losses run into the red to much. I have worked on my mistakes and feel more in control over them. But there was a time not so long ago that I still made them, if I focus 100% on what I'm doing at all times I can reduce them greatly. If I had used real money from the start my loses would be well into five figures by now. I just kept going and learning and trying to get better now I feel very close and confident.
Thanks for the wishes of luck guys I hope this goes well and I can be part of this industry and community......
Thanks
Alex
Ps Bet angel rocks.... and peter is a legend
Thank you iambic any advice I get is really appreciated.
I don't have a lot of savings atm tbh but I have another income stream. This is a risky business I appreciate that and hats off to the successful traders. This is no way easy to do. I think everyone starts with a gamblers mentality and to change that way of thinking is bloody hard.
if I disappear over the coming weeks that will probably mean I failed and went back to my life before trading but I really need to make this work. It's so or die for me now.
I don't have multiple screens atm. I'm just using a laptop and have my phone and tablet for checking the racing post or odds checker (which I hardly ever take notice of, I rarely trade based on what Oddschecker says)
Any more advice is welcome guys, I don't mind if it's negative I will try to draw from it and not let it actually rain on my positive parade at this point before I start. Please do not hold back with any comments or advice.
Also I have put a pic of how I have my settings, it's a dog market but usually I have three mini graphs above my advanced chart.
Thanks
Alex
I don't have a lot of savings atm tbh but I have another income stream. This is a risky business I appreciate that and hats off to the successful traders. This is no way easy to do. I think everyone starts with a gamblers mentality and to change that way of thinking is bloody hard.
if I disappear over the coming weeks that will probably mean I failed and went back to my life before trading
but I really need to make this work. It's so or die for me now.I don't have multiple screens atm. I'm just using a laptop and have my phone and tablet for checking the racing post or odds checker (which I hardly ever take notice of, I rarely trade based on what Oddschecker says)
Any more advice is welcome guys, I don't mind if it's negative I will try to draw from it and not let it actually rain on my positive parade at this point before I start. Please do not hold back with any comments or advice.
Also I have put a pic of how I have my settings, it's a dog market but usually I have three mini graphs above my advanced chart.
Thanks
Alex
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I hope it goes well for you.
There is no reason why you can't achieve those levels though, don't limit yourself.
Final thing I would say after that last post is it will definitely be the emotional and psychological side of things that will determine your success. And you will see very quicky how important that part of the game is.
There is no reason why you can't achieve those levels though, don't limit yourself.
Final thing I would say after that last post is it will definitely be the emotional and psychological side of things that will determine your success. And you will see very quicky how important that part of the game is.
I would advise scaling up slowly, even with a small bank. Just test the market first to see if it reacts as you would expect having only been training in practice mode. Then scale up as you find it's what you expect. There's absolutely no reason not to start small.
Practice mode (aka simulating) can never be 100% accurate in terms of matching your money, so you need to be comfortable that your training was a good representation before you put any sizable amount through. Secondly, it doesn't account for market impact whatsoever. If there is £500 on the book, and you add £500 on top of that, it's bound to have an impact in real life, whereas it won't in practice. Also the money that you match will impact real future events, which also isn't the case in practice.
Practice mode (aka simulating) can never be 100% accurate in terms of matching your money, so you need to be comfortable that your training was a good representation before you put any sizable amount through. Secondly, it doesn't account for market impact whatsoever. If there is £500 on the book, and you add £500 on top of that, it's bound to have an impact in real life, whereas it won't in practice. Also the money that you match will impact real future events, which also isn't the case in practice.
Hey xitain thank you for your input mate. I will take all this advice on aboard and scale up more slowly and try to be a bit more reserved to start off with. I will make sure I keep a very close eye out for how my money will affect the market and build up into that as you are right that I have never actually dropped in real orders. At the moment Im only using a couple of strategies and I rarely take a view on a weak horse market. I only usually get involved in horse markets when it's getting quite busy and a bit of a war is going. I usually only enter when there is quite a bit of money going on either side and now the markets are getting busier there is certainly a lot of activity before I get involved in markets. Also I think I have got so much better at spotting spoof money, I can see what's real and not most of the time this has helped me a lot at picking direction. i probably will start a bit smaller and scale up now, I just I wanted to start drawing a bit of profit straight Away. Which is pretty stupid to just jump in like that I guess.
Also I do not expose a lot with greyhounds and tennis.
Cheers
Also I do not expose a lot with greyhounds and tennis.
Cheers
Last edited by aquaclear on Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RentonT wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:16 pmI hope it goes well for you.
There is no reason why you can't achieve those levels though, don't limit yourself.
Final thing I would say after that last post is it will definitely be the emotional and psychological side of things that will determine your success. And you will see very quicky how important that part of the game is.
Thank you Renton I really need it. I'm going to be a new dad this year to twins so really need this and really want to make this work out for me. I know the opportunity is still there although it's probably much harder these days. I'm not expecting I will pay off my mortgage anytime soon but it would be nice to see a sizeable tax free chunk land in my bank account every month. Fingers crossed and thank you again for you advice and well wishes mate.
Hey Renton,
What do you mean by this mate? Doesn't bet angel just place the other bet when you green out? So you have to have the money available for the other side? I know Betfair has the cash out button and the other stake isn't required to green out.
My back up plan was to have the betfair page on another laptop so I could cash out if my worst fear of maxing the bank before I have built a bit of profit onto my initial market exposure.
For example if you stakedd your entire bank of £1000 on an opening back bet at odds of 4.0 you would have no problem exiting the trade whether the price went up or down. But obviously if it goes up you lose money.
Your bank limits you to what position you can open up, so in this case you wouldn't be able to lay first at 4.0 for £1000 with £3000 liability.
Your bank limits you to what position you can open up, so in this case you wouldn't be able to lay first at 4.0 for £1000 with £3000 liability.
Hey thanks for that Renton but is that not just on the betfair page 'cash out' and on betangel if you hit the green out/hedge button at the top you still need the money for the bet?
I got my atr setup today guys and have taken onboard everyone's advice to scale back and start smaller. I have credited £100 to my account and will work with that to see what I can do. If I can get to where I think I can or around that within 14 days then maybe I will top up the balance to get it to the level I want.
I attempted to trade for real this evening, a Short while ago and I just froze lol I was to scared to get involved and missed a what would of been a few good trades if I executed. And I scratched a couple of others that would of gone green. The markets I looked at were quite flat and mainly scalping markets but I did a one tick scalp and made £0.10 lol I was determined my first trade would be profitable. I spotted a bit of strange manipulation on The Anvil 20:30 Dundalk backed him at a bargin price of 1.36 (he did touch the ceiling at 1.38 at one point after I greened) for a £5 liability then layed & hedged at 1.35.... how's that for scaling down I think The Anvil should of gone off a lot shorter in the 20:00 but someone or a small few was seriously trying to push or keep him up as the volume on the lay side was far to much but it was clear what was going on. I'm actually chuffed to bits with my £0.10 profit, it's a start
Fingers crossed for tomorrow. Happy trading guys
I got my atr setup today guys and have taken onboard everyone's advice to scale back and start smaller. I have credited £100 to my account and will work with that to see what I can do. If I can get to where I think I can or around that within 14 days then maybe I will top up the balance to get it to the level I want.
I attempted to trade for real this evening, a Short while ago and I just froze lol I was to scared to get involved and missed a what would of been a few good trades if I executed. And I scratched a couple of others that would of gone green. The markets I looked at were quite flat and mainly scalping markets but I did a one tick scalp and made £0.10 lol I was determined my first trade would be profitable. I spotted a bit of strange manipulation on The Anvil 20:30 Dundalk backed him at a bargin price of 1.36 (he did touch the ceiling at 1.38 at one point after I greened) for a £5 liability then layed & hedged at 1.35.... how's that for scaling down
I think The Anvil should of gone off a lot shorter in the 20:00 but someone or a small few was seriously trying to push or keep him up as the volume on the lay side was far to much but it was clear what was going on. I'm actually chuffed to bits with my £0.10 profit, it's a start Fingers crossed for tomorrow. Happy trading guys