Betfair Expert fee : Questions

[Euler]

I thought it would be worth starting a thread with questions people have about the Expert Fee.

I'd be interested to gauge what sort of things are on people's minds and any specific questions about the fee or it's implementation.

The next time I chat to Betfair, I'll compile the top questions to put to them.

I can't promise to get all answers, but if there is commonality between questions then it will obviously raise the importance of that question.

[jamesedwards]

What's the thinking behind setting the new charging bands without graduated rates? Have Betfair considered that this will incentivise many traders to reduce activity?

eg for higher band:
£125k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 40% = £75k after charges.
£95k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £76k after charges.
Therefore £1k greater profit for 25% less work.

eg for lower band:
£28k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £22.4k after charges.
£23k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at zero rate = £23k after charges.
Therefore £0.6k greater profit for 20% less work.

For some they might as well take a few months off until their rolling profit drops beneath their current band. Then maintain a permanently capped activity level that keeps them just below the threshold.

Updated to correct my appalling maths

[jamesedwards]

What assumptions have Betfair made around traded volume growth as a direct result of the charges structure change? How long do they think it will take for the full benefit to be recognised?

[jamesedwards]

How do Betfair intend to market the new structure to tempt dormant accounts back into action?

[ShaunWhite]

What's the thinking behind setting the new charging bands without graduated rates? Have Betfair considered that this will incentivise many traders to reduce activity?

eg for higher band:
£125k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 40% = £67.5k after charges.
£95k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £68.4k after charges.
Therefore £1k greater profit for 25% less work.

eg for lower band:
£28k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £20.2k after charges.
£23k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at zero rate = £20.7k after charges.
Therefore £0.5k greater profit for 20% less work.

For some they might as well take a few months off until their rolling profit drops beneath their current band. Then maintain a permanently capped activity level that keeps them just below the threshold.

If you're generating 10% then wouldn't those be 30% and 10%? I'm certainly hoping that it's as per the old system, ie making your commission paid up to a total of 20 or 40%, rather than pay/gen 10, pay another 40 on top of that? But I understand the principal you've described and it's valid.

[annuity]

What's the thinking behind setting the new charging bands without graduated rates? Have Betfair considered that this will incentivise many traders to reduce activity?

eg for higher band:
£125k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 40% = £67.5k after charges.
£95k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £68.4k after charges.
Therefore £1k greater profit for 25% less work.

eg for lower band:
£28k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £20.2k after charges.
£23k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at zero rate = £20.7k after charges.
Therefore £0.5k greater profit for 20% less work.

For some they might as well take a few months off until their rolling profit drops beneath their current band. Then maintain a permanently capped activity level that keeps them just below the threshold.

It's rolling week to week so you can at least look to profit what you did a year earlier to maintain the current charge rather than stop completely. Alot depends on how consistently you're able to profit and/or if you're looking to expand on what you're already doing. For me as a straight better i'll just ride the wave and pay whatever.

[jamesedwards]

What's the thinking behind setting the new charging bands without graduated rates? Have Betfair considered that this will incentivise many traders to reduce activity?

eg for higher band:
£125k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 40% = £67.5k after charges.
£95k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £68.4k after charges.
Therefore £1k greater profit for 25% less work.

eg for lower band:
£28k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £20.2k after charges.
£23k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at zero rate = £20.7k after charges.
Therefore £0.5k greater profit for 20% less work.

For some they might as well take a few months off until their rolling profit drops beneath their current band. Then maintain a permanently capped activity level that keeps them just below the threshold.

If you're generating 10% then wouldn't those be 30% and 10%? I'm certainly hoping that it's as per the old system, ie making your commission paid up to a total of 20 or 40%, rather than pay/gen 10, pay another 40 on top of that? But I understand the principal you've described and it's valid.

Sorry, an error in my calcs

Same story though.

eg for higher band:
£125k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 40% = £75k after charges.
£95k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £76k after charges.
Therefore £1k greater profit for 25% less work.

eg for lower band:
£28k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £22.4k after charges.
£23k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at zero rate = £23k after charges.
Therefore £0.6k greater profit for 20% less work.

[jamesedwards]

What's the thinking behind setting the new charging bands without graduated rates? Have Betfair considered that this will incentivise many traders to reduce activity?

eg for higher band:
£125k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 40% = £67.5k after charges.
£95k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £68.4k after charges.
Therefore £1k greater profit for 25% less work.

eg for lower band:
£28k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at 20% = £20.2k after charges.
£23k gross profit, paying out and generating 10% in commission, would normally be charged at zero rate = £20.7k after charges.
Therefore £0.5k greater profit for 20% less work.

For some they might as well take a few months off until their rolling profit drops beneath their current band. Then maintain a permanently capped activity level that keeps them just below the threshold.

It's rolling week to week so you can at least look to profit what you did a year earlier to maintain the current charge rather than stop completely. Alot depends on how consistently you're able to profit and/or if you're looking to expand on what you're already doing. For me as a straight better i'll just ride the wave and pay whatever.

Anyone sat between £100k-£132k rolling profit, (and granted, relatively consistent), would ceteris paribus be better off shutting up shop until their rolling 52 weeks reaches below £100k. Once below £100k then recommence activity but at a capped level to remain consistently just below threshold.

[Andriy]

Will the old rule of a single market win greater than 50% of Lifetime Gross Profit not counting for calculations still stand... i've always wondered how many people this has been beneficial for, must be just a handful..... but in the event of hitting upon a monumentally misfiring bot, like the 1000 on Liverpool in the Premier League market, but to massive stakes, it would be nice to know. Thanks.

[lmigueltavares]

For those with accounts in euros, is the expert fee exempt from up to €30,000 of gross profit in the last 52 weeks or are the intervals different?

[gstar1975]

What happens to the lifetime losses amount? Does that get removed?

[weemac]

What's BF's thinking behind the rationale, and the timing, of the fee's introduction?

[fraac]

Any chance the 100k limit will increase with inflation? That's the only downside for me personally.

[ShaunWhite]

What happens to the lifetime losses amount? Does that get removed?

It's a rolling 52 week gross. Older gains or losses no longer count.

Scratching old winnings is a way to tempt people back who earned a decent <100k amount but were hammered by PC or PC2 and stuck on it.

[Anbell]

What happens to the lifetime losses amount? Does that get removed?

It's a rolling 52 week gross. Older gains or losses no longer count.

Scratching old winnings is a way to tempt people back who earned a decent <100k amount but were hammered by PC or PC2 and stuck on it.

I think you keep your bank of losses to carry forward