Rather than use the £ per tick approach I try to use a £ per greened up tick i.e. each tick at all prices will result in the same profit if greened up at the current price.
For example £10 per tick at 2.0 will green up to £5 whereas £10 per tick at 5.0 will green up to £2. There is a simple relationship between the current lay odds and the tick percentage allowing the right stake to be calculated for each price to maintain a constant greened up profit per tick. All this gets a bit much while you trading so I take the median stake of each odds range to approximate the right stake. This results in a simple mapping from the betangel stakes generated with a given tick size to these median stakes, here is an example where the columns are Odds range, Betangel stake (£1 per tick) and median stake to get a constant £1 greened up profit
1.01 - 2.0 £100 £150
2.02 - 3.0 £50 £125
3.05 - 4.0 £20 £70
4.10 - 6.0 £10 £50
6.20 - 10.0 £5 £40
10.5 - 20.0 £2 £30
and just multiply up for larger per tick profits.
What would be very useful is if it was possible to load the preset stake table with different stakes based on the current tick size.
At the moment I preload the preset table with stake sizes for the per tick profit I'm looking for and select the stake corresponding to the odds on offer, this is a workable solution but when the odds move quickly I find I am under or over staking for the current odds.
Cheers,
Chris
Configurable staking formula/table
Hello,
It is really for scalping single ticks, where each tick will result in the same profit/loss whatever the price and size of tick. To do it perfectly you need a different stake for each price which is not practical. For example here are the required stakes for the odds ranging from 4.0 to 3.05 where each tick corresponds to 5% of the stake, the second column is required stake to get a £1 per tick profit when greened up.
3.95 79
3.9 78
3.85 77
3.8 76
3.75 75
3.7 74
3.65 73
3.6 72
3.55 71
3.5 70
3.45 69
3.4 68
3.35 67
3.3 66
3.25 65
3.2 64
3.15 63
3.1 62
3.05 61
The Betangel £1 per tick setting would suggest a constant stake of £20 across this range, what I do is use the middle value of the stakes listed above i.e. £70 which will return a bit more than £1 per greened tick for some prices and a bit less for others, but gets closer to a predictable constant return across all prices.
Cheers,
Chris
It is really for scalping single ticks, where each tick will result in the same profit/loss whatever the price and size of tick. To do it perfectly you need a different stake for each price which is not practical. For example here are the required stakes for the odds ranging from 4.0 to 3.05 where each tick corresponds to 5% of the stake, the second column is required stake to get a £1 per tick profit when greened up.
3.95 79
3.9 78
3.85 77
3.8 76
3.75 75
3.7 74
3.65 73
3.6 72
3.55 71
3.5 70
3.45 69
3.4 68
3.35 67
3.3 66
3.25 65
3.2 64
3.15 63
3.1 62
3.05 61
The Betangel £1 per tick setting would suggest a constant stake of £20 across this range, what I do is use the middle value of the stakes listed above i.e. £70 which will return a bit more than £1 per greened tick for some prices and a bit less for others, but gets closer to a predictable constant return across all prices.
Cheers,
Chris
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ndarlington
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:41 pm
I would very much like to see a solution to this, as the green figure is obviously more important than the 'free punt' figure.
That would be useful because when I'm doing a football scalp, I quite often do a similar thing to Chris.Bet Angel wrote:If you can come up with some staking formula's we can probably apply a model to put them in the software. Even if you have some basic parameters such as add, mult, divide by runner etc.
If I'm looking to make £7.50 on a match and the favourite is trading at 1.66, I know this is a £12.45 tick size before greening.
If BA could offer a facility of working the stakes out for us, that would be wicked
Hi,Bet Angel wrote:If you can come up with some staking formula's we can probably apply a model to put them in the software. Even if you have some basic parameters such as add, mult, divide by runner etc.
Sorry for delay in replying, I've been ill for a few weeks (including a stint in Hospital) so missed your message. I'm recovering now so I'll put together a formula for the staking I've described as a function of the price and current ticksize in £.
Cheers,
Chris
Hi BetAngel,Bet Angel wrote:If you can come up with some staking formula's we can probably apply a model to put them in the software. Even if you have some basic parameters such as add, mult, divide by runner etc.
To calculate the accurate stake for a constant greened figure ( i.e. equivalent of the current £ per tick ), the formula would be
Stake = Current_lay_price / Current_tick_size * £_per_tick
e.g Current_lay_price = 3.6
Current_tick_size = 0.05 (determined by Current_lay_price )
£_per_tick = £5
Stake = 3.6 /0.05 * 5 = £360
To calculate the median for each tick size range, determine the mid price for each tick size range and use this as the Current_lay_price in the formula above to calculate a fixed stake to use across the tick size range
e.g. for the odds range 2.98 - 2.0 where the tick size is 0.02, a good choice for mid price would be 2.5, therefore the stake (@ £5 per tick) to be used across the whole of this tick size range would be
Stake = 2.5 / 0.02 * 5 = £625
Using this in place of the earlier method would give a greened tick gain/loss varying between £4.19 and £6.25 (obviously the first method would generate £5 across the whole range). Using the standard BA staking at £5 per tick would generate a stake of £250 across the range and the gain/loss would between £1.68 and £2.50 when greened up. It would be also be possible to split the tick size in sections and change the stake 2 or 3 times with the price but I'm not sure whether this could get a bit confusing in practice.
It would great to be able to opted for either one of the staking methods described as an alternative to the current £ per tick (not greened up) or even allow some way enter a formula of the users making using a fixed set of parameters.
Chris
We are working on a number of things in the background all the time but don't want to comitt to specifics as we often bump into issues / different paths along the way. But your suggestion, as with others, is duly noted. Would love to say, yes it will be around in X weeks time but I think we would let people down more often than we get it right. A new version will be out inside the next couple of weeks but this suggestion is not the new version, sorry.
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Nero Tulip
- Posts: 708
- Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:29 pm
This is one of the reasons why I asked for a binary ladder a long time ago.
Trading on a £ per %point basis, solves all of this. £1 bought at 50 (£50 back at evens), then later sold at 71.43 (£71.43 lay at 1.4), nets you £21.43 whatever the outcome.
It's very simple, you always know that if you buy or sell the same amount you bought/sold that you will be exactly green.
Another example -
£20 a point sell at 83.33 (£1666.60 lay at 1.2). Buy back £20 a point at 76.92 (£1538.40 back at 1.3), you make £128.2 on all outcomes.
Trading on a £ per %point basis, solves all of this. £1 bought at 50 (£50 back at evens), then later sold at 71.43 (£71.43 lay at 1.4), nets you £21.43 whatever the outcome.
It's very simple, you always know that if you buy or sell the same amount you bought/sold that you will be exactly green.
Another example -
£20 a point sell at 83.33 (£1666.60 lay at 1.2). Buy back £20 a point at 76.92 (£1538.40 back at 1.3), you make £128.2 on all outcomes.
Would love to see per tick greened up auto staking added. I have exactly the same problems as chris_ri having to remember to select the specific preset stake for each runner every time and can be staking too much/little if the price moves over a crossover point while you're in the thick of things.
The formula i have is based on midway between each crossover point so green will be higher or lower at each end of the odds range i.e for odds between 2-3 the stake is based on odds of 2.5 so the formula would need tweaking to make it work on a strictly per tick basis. As chris_ri said this is currently the only way to feasible do it or you would need to remember hundreds of different preset stakes for each odds tick to get it spot on.
Here is the formula i have up to odds of 20. Tick size amount refers to the number that is input in the auto staking area on Bet Angel.
Odds 1-2 = Tick size amount x 100 x 1.5
Odds 2-3 = Tick size amount x 100 x 1.25
Odds 3-4 = Tick size amount x 100 x 0.7
Odds 4-6 = Tick size amount x 100 x 0.5
Odds 6-10 = Tick size amount x 100 x 0.4
Odds 10- 20 = Tick size amount x 100 x 0.3
So for example if you selected a tick size amount of £2 greened up(before commission) and the odds of a selection were between 3-4 the stake size would be £2 x 100 x 0.7 = £140.
I would also like to see the auto staking adjust by one tick when reversing the book.
The formula i have is based on midway between each crossover point so green will be higher or lower at each end of the odds range i.e for odds between 2-3 the stake is based on odds of 2.5 so the formula would need tweaking to make it work on a strictly per tick basis. As chris_ri said this is currently the only way to feasible do it or you would need to remember hundreds of different preset stakes for each odds tick to get it spot on.
Here is the formula i have up to odds of 20. Tick size amount refers to the number that is input in the auto staking area on Bet Angel.
Odds 1-2 = Tick size amount x 100 x 1.5
Odds 2-3 = Tick size amount x 100 x 1.25
Odds 3-4 = Tick size amount x 100 x 0.7
Odds 4-6 = Tick size amount x 100 x 0.5
Odds 6-10 = Tick size amount x 100 x 0.4
Odds 10- 20 = Tick size amount x 100 x 0.3
So for example if you selected a tick size amount of £2 greened up(before commission) and the odds of a selection were between 3-4 the stake size would be £2 x 100 x 0.7 = £140.
I would also like to see the auto staking adjust by one tick when reversing the book.
I've asked for this many times, but Peter thinks it's shit
When I was starting to make money on BF, I used to calculate my stakes so I'd make 'x' amount after greening. The beauty was that I simply needed to have a profit of ticks to be in profit - i.e. if I was doing £5 per tick after greening - I wasn't so bothered about redding up for £5 loss on a market, as I knew I'd get a 2 tick movement somewhere else for £10
It was huge in mentally allowing me to take reds, as my trading became about ticks rather than money. I doubt I'd still be here without this change of mentality
If we use the drop down box we can have a setting of £5 per tick. Therefore, backing a 1.50 shot = £500 stakes, but I struggle to see why £5 after greening cannot be added, so backing a 1.50 shot becomes £750 instead
Like I say, Peter thinks it's useless. Let's face it, who the f**k are we to argue with PW when it comes to trading
When I was starting to make money on BF, I used to calculate my stakes so I'd make 'x' amount after greening. The beauty was that I simply needed to have a profit of ticks to be in profit - i.e. if I was doing £5 per tick after greening - I wasn't so bothered about redding up for £5 loss on a market, as I knew I'd get a 2 tick movement somewhere else for £10
It was huge in mentally allowing me to take reds, as my trading became about ticks rather than money. I doubt I'd still be here without this change of mentality
If we use the drop down box we can have a setting of £5 per tick. Therefore, backing a 1.50 shot = £500 stakes, but I struggle to see why £5 after greening cannot be added, so backing a 1.50 shot becomes £750 instead
Like I say, Peter thinks it's useless. Let's face it, who the f**k are we to argue with PW when it comes to trading
That's a shameLeTiss 4pm wrote:I've asked for this many times, but Peter thinks it's shit
When I was starting to make money on BF, I used to calculate my stakes so I'd make 'x' amount after greening. The beauty was that I simply needed to have a profit of ticks to be in profit - i.e. if I was doing £5 per tick after greening - I wasn't so bothered about redding up for £5 loss on a market, as I knew I'd get a 2 tick movement somewhere else for £10
It was huge in mentally allowing me to take reds, as my trading became about ticks rather than money. I doubt I'd still be here without this change of mentality
If we use the drop down box we can have a setting of £5 per tick. Therefore, backing a 1.50 shot = £500 stakes, but I struggle to see why £5 after greening cannot be added, so backing a 1.50 shot becomes £750 instead
Like I say, Peter thinks it's useless. Let's face it, who the f**k are we to argue with PW when it comes to trading
I really can't understand why it's not the default option but as you say Peter is the king of the exchanges so i'd love to know why he thinks it's no good. Unless i've completely misunderstood trading i thought the idea was to green up not just hedge?With just the hedge staking the green is massively different at lower odds to higher odds and the liability staking is out 1 tick on the lay side when reversing the book. As things stand the auto staking is completely redundant to me when i'd really like to use it.