Hillsborough: Thatcher told 'drunk fans' caused disaster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896
i'm going to be a bit controversial here, but it's a simple fact that if several thousand Liverpool fans (without tickets) hadn't turned up and tried to get in then the disaster would not have happened. that's a simple fact.
i grew up in Sheffield and sometimes used to stand on the Leppings Lane end as a kid (supporting the opposition when the mighty Blades were away!, just to see some football). crushes had occurred in the central section of the standing area before (it was a bad design and the dividers in the standing area should have been removed years earlier - you could only get into the central section through a narrow tunnel under the stand above and people couldn't see what was in front of them so would just push through, as crowds do).
the police shouldn't have opened the gates, it was a mistake, but they wouldn't have had to make that decision had the ticketless crowd outside not been there.
my cousin's husband was a policeman on duty at the ground that day and he ended up in a mental home because he couldn't cope with what he'd experienced that day. the disaster saddened me to the core (as a football fan), but to solely blame the police is just ridiculous - yet it still continues today.
as with most disasters, it was a combination of events and decisions that caused it. was it merely a coincidence that the 2 major football disasters of recent times in Europe involved Liverpool fans? no it wasn't, but people (and the media) cannot accept the truth so they find someone else to blame.
Hillsborough
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superfrank
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm
Last edited by superfrank on Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I remember those awful iron barriers on the terraces.
I used to go to The Dell as a kid, and I'll never forget a match against Ipswich where I got pinned against a barrier after a Saints goal. I was literally struggling to breath
The events of Hillsborough were tragic, but they were destined to happen somewhere
I used to go to The Dell as a kid, and I'll never forget a match against Ipswich where I got pinned against a barrier after a Saints goal. I was literally struggling to breath
The events of Hillsborough were tragic, but they were destined to happen somewhere
At the end of the day someone had a legal responsibility to look after the well being of the people attending the match. In this case it was South Yorkshire Police. This was only 4 years after Heysel. A time when policing football matches was akin to Gestapo tactics. The cages went up, the police were gathering more and more intelligence on the fans. This was a semi final of the FA Cup. A game when the police should have known exactly what to expect, the problems are the ground were well known by the local police as you point out. The football club must take some blame too, as should the FA.
So there were "allegedly" 1000's of fans without tickets. The police were aware of this. They failed in their duty to protect the public. They were to blame. Period. Then the spineless bastards tried to blame the supporters. Shame on them.
In this country we are policed by consent. That means we put our trust in them to look after our safety. They let us down.
SF, I am sorry for your cousins husband. He was doing his duty and was let down by his superiors. But I feel more sorry for the families of 96 innocent football supporters & the countless 100's of others that were also mentally scared, and then blamed for the tragedy by the lying Police & politicians. Your view isn't controversial, it has been bought about by the constant media drip feed of misinformation.
I'll leave you with this......
"Justice for the 96" YNWA
So there were "allegedly" 1000's of fans without tickets. The police were aware of this. They failed in their duty to protect the public. They were to blame. Period. Then the spineless bastards tried to blame the supporters. Shame on them.
In this country we are policed by consent. That means we put our trust in them to look after our safety. They let us down.
SF, I am sorry for your cousins husband. He was doing his duty and was let down by his superiors. But I feel more sorry for the families of 96 innocent football supporters & the countless 100's of others that were also mentally scared, and then blamed for the tragedy by the lying Police & politicians. Your view isn't controversial, it has been bought about by the constant media drip feed of misinformation.
I'll leave you with this......
"Justice for the 96" YNWA
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superfrank
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm
mugsgame,
you obviously feel passionately about the subject, as do i.
i agree entirely that the police's attitude to football fans at the time was absolutely dreadful... i was involved (not directly!) in many football riots as a teenager in Yorkshire and saw some awful things (on both sides). the police enjoyed a ruck just as much as some fans did imho.
but to get back to Hillsborough, the police only played a part in the disaster. the design of the ground and the Liverpool fans were the other significant factors. it's not good enough just to say that the police should have kept everyone safe and therefore they are to blame... that's akin to saying the security services were to blame for 9/11 or 7/7. not a great comparison i know, because the fans who tried to get in without tickets in no way intended for people to die (and equally the rioters at Heysel didn't want people to die), but ultimately everyone has to be responsible for the results of their actions.
you obviously feel passionately about the subject, as do i.
i agree entirely that the police's attitude to football fans at the time was absolutely dreadful... i was involved (not directly!) in many football riots as a teenager in Yorkshire and saw some awful things (on both sides). the police enjoyed a ruck just as much as some fans did imho.
but to get back to Hillsborough, the police only played a part in the disaster. the design of the ground and the Liverpool fans were the other significant factors. it's not good enough just to say that the police should have kept everyone safe and therefore they are to blame... that's akin to saying the security services were to blame for 9/11 or 7/7. not a great comparison i know, because the fans who tried to get in without tickets in no way intended for people to die (and equally the rioters at Heysel didn't want people to die), but ultimately everyone has to be responsible for the results of their actions.
I have been to loads of matches back in that era when I was stopped by the police, corralled. detained or whatever word you wish to choose. There were reasons for this. Public safety. As a member of the public I have no idea how many others would have travelled to a match, where they were or what their intentions were. The police does have that intelligence.
To compare this to Heysel on the grounds of LFC fans were involved is not on. What about Ibrox "71? The guy with the kiddy on his shoulders that stopped on the stairway to see Colin Steins goal. Was he to blame for 66 deaths? Or was it the design of the stadium? What about Bradford '85? The guy who dropped the cigarette, was the fire his fault or did someone have responsibility to ensure dropping a cigarette wouldn't ignite the stadium. The way football stadiums are designed and policed changed because of these events. But if people took more responsibility for their actions they wouldn't have needed to.
Why is are speed limits enforced? If everyone took personal responsibility for there driving there would be no need.
Obviously people cannot be trusted. So we. as the "general public" give over the power to police to a body that does take responsibility.
There is no doubt that Hillsborough was a tragedy. But come on, it's time the person who did have responsibility took their share of the blame.
I am all for taking responsibility for your actions, but when there are several hundred or 1000 others involved there has to be someone to take overall responsibility, someone with all the facts to hand to make a decision. That is/was undeniably the police in this case.
Just so we can all remember what happened here remember this:
24,000 tickets, 23 turnstiles, two criminally overcrowded pens, 96 dead and 766 people injured. look at the ages of some of these irresponsible. drunken hoodlums.
John Alfred Anderson (62)
Colin Mark Ashcroft (19)
James Gary Aspinall (18)
Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16)
Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)
Simon Bell (17)
Barry Sidney Bennett (26)
David John Benson (22)
David William Birtle (22)
Tony Bland (22)
Paul David Brady (21)
Andrew Mark Brookes (26)
Carl Brown (18)
David Steven Brown (25)
Henry Thomas Burke (47)
Peter Andrew Burkett (24)
Paul William Carlile (19)
Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)
Gary Christopher Church (19)
Joseph Clark (29)
Paul Clark (18)
Gary Collins (22)
Stephen Paul Copoc (20)
Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23)
James Philip Delaney (19)
Christopher Barry Devonside (18)
Christopher Edwards (29)
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34)
Thomas Steven Fox (21)
Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)
Barry Glover (27)
Ian Thomas Glover (20)
Derrick George Godwin (24)
Roy Harry Hamilton (34)
Philip Hammond (14)
Eric Hankin (33)
Gary Harrison (27)
Stephen Francis Harrison (31)
Peter Andrew Harrison (15)
David Hawley (39)
James Robert Hennessy (29)
Paul Anthony Hewitson (26)
Carl Darren Hewitt (17)
Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16)
Sarah Louise Hicks (19)
Victoria Jane Hicks (15)
Gordon Rodney Horn (20)
Arthur Horrocks (41)
Thomas Howard (39)
Thomas Anthony Howard (14)
Eric George Hughes (42)
Alan Johnston (29)
Christine Anne Jones (27)
Gary Philip Jones (18)
Richard Jones (25)
Nicholas Peter Joynes (27)
Anthony Peter Kelly (29)
Michael David Kelly (38)
Carl David Lewis (18)
David William Mather (19)
Brian Christopher Mathews (38)
Francis Joseph McAllister (27)
John McBrien (18)
Marion Hazel McCabe (21)
Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21)
Peter McDonnell (21)
Alan McGlone (28)
Keith McGrath (17)
Paul Brian Murray (14)
Lee Nicol (14)
Stephen Francis O'Neill (17)
Jonathon Owens (18)
William Roy Pemberton (23)
Carl William Rimmer (21)
David George Rimmer (38)
Graham John Roberts (24)
Steven Joseph Robinson (17)
Henry Charles Rogers (17)
Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23)
Inger Shah (38)
Paula Ann Smith (26)
Adam Edward Spearritt (14)
Philip John Steele (15)
David Leonard Thomas (23)
Patrik John Thompson (35)
Peter Reuben Thompson (30)
Stuart Paul William Thompson (17)
Peter Francis Tootle (21)
Christopher James Traynor (26)
Martin Kevin Traynor (16)
Kevin Tyrrell (15)
Colin Wafer (19)
Ian David Whelan (19)
Martin Kenneth Wild (29)
Kevin Daniel Williams (15)
Graham John Wright (17)
The truth will come out soon enough.
To compare this to Heysel on the grounds of LFC fans were involved is not on. What about Ibrox "71? The guy with the kiddy on his shoulders that stopped on the stairway to see Colin Steins goal. Was he to blame for 66 deaths? Or was it the design of the stadium? What about Bradford '85? The guy who dropped the cigarette, was the fire his fault or did someone have responsibility to ensure dropping a cigarette wouldn't ignite the stadium. The way football stadiums are designed and policed changed because of these events. But if people took more responsibility for their actions they wouldn't have needed to.
Why is are speed limits enforced? If everyone took personal responsibility for there driving there would be no need.
Obviously people cannot be trusted. So we. as the "general public" give over the power to police to a body that does take responsibility.
There is no doubt that Hillsborough was a tragedy. But come on, it's time the person who did have responsibility took their share of the blame.
I am all for taking responsibility for your actions, but when there are several hundred or 1000 others involved there has to be someone to take overall responsibility, someone with all the facts to hand to make a decision. That is/was undeniably the police in this case.
Just so we can all remember what happened here remember this:
24,000 tickets, 23 turnstiles, two criminally overcrowded pens, 96 dead and 766 people injured. look at the ages of some of these irresponsible. drunken hoodlums.
John Alfred Anderson (62)
Colin Mark Ashcroft (19)
James Gary Aspinall (18)
Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16)
Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)
Simon Bell (17)
Barry Sidney Bennett (26)
David John Benson (22)
David William Birtle (22)
Tony Bland (22)
Paul David Brady (21)
Andrew Mark Brookes (26)
Carl Brown (18)
David Steven Brown (25)
Henry Thomas Burke (47)
Peter Andrew Burkett (24)
Paul William Carlile (19)
Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)
Gary Christopher Church (19)
Joseph Clark (29)
Paul Clark (18)
Gary Collins (22)
Stephen Paul Copoc (20)
Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23)
James Philip Delaney (19)
Christopher Barry Devonside (18)
Christopher Edwards (29)
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34)
Thomas Steven Fox (21)
Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)
Barry Glover (27)
Ian Thomas Glover (20)
Derrick George Godwin (24)
Roy Harry Hamilton (34)
Philip Hammond (14)
Eric Hankin (33)
Gary Harrison (27)
Stephen Francis Harrison (31)
Peter Andrew Harrison (15)
David Hawley (39)
James Robert Hennessy (29)
Paul Anthony Hewitson (26)
Carl Darren Hewitt (17)
Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16)
Sarah Louise Hicks (19)
Victoria Jane Hicks (15)
Gordon Rodney Horn (20)
Arthur Horrocks (41)
Thomas Howard (39)
Thomas Anthony Howard (14)
Eric George Hughes (42)
Alan Johnston (29)
Christine Anne Jones (27)
Gary Philip Jones (18)
Richard Jones (25)
Nicholas Peter Joynes (27)
Anthony Peter Kelly (29)
Michael David Kelly (38)
Carl David Lewis (18)
David William Mather (19)
Brian Christopher Mathews (38)
Francis Joseph McAllister (27)
John McBrien (18)
Marion Hazel McCabe (21)
Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21)
Peter McDonnell (21)
Alan McGlone (28)
Keith McGrath (17)
Paul Brian Murray (14)
Lee Nicol (14)
Stephen Francis O'Neill (17)
Jonathon Owens (18)
William Roy Pemberton (23)
Carl William Rimmer (21)
David George Rimmer (38)
Graham John Roberts (24)
Steven Joseph Robinson (17)
Henry Charles Rogers (17)
Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23)
Inger Shah (38)
Paula Ann Smith (26)
Adam Edward Spearritt (14)
Philip John Steele (15)
David Leonard Thomas (23)
Patrik John Thompson (35)
Peter Reuben Thompson (30)
Stuart Paul William Thompson (17)
Peter Francis Tootle (21)
Christopher James Traynor (26)
Martin Kevin Traynor (16)
Kevin Tyrrell (15)
Colin Wafer (19)
Ian David Whelan (19)
Martin Kenneth Wild (29)
Kevin Daniel Williams (15)
Graham John Wright (17)
The truth will come out soon enough.
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superfrank
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm
to be fair those people were not acting against the law (gaining entry without a ticket and rioting are) - you can't stand behind the law on one point and ignore it on the another.mugsgame wrote:What about Ibrox "71? The guy with the kiddy on his shoulders that stopped on the stairway to see Colin Steins goal. Was he to blame for 66 deaths? Or was it the design of the stadium? What about Bradford '85? The guy who dropped the cigarette, was the fire his fault or did someone have responsibility to ensure dropping a cigarette wouldn't ignite the stadium.
i did say on introduction that this was a controversial subject, and i guess it always will be. no offence mate, it was just a very personal thing for me, but in a tiny way to those actually involved on the day.