Help for new Traders. Evening Racing - flow of money

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JollyGreen
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

After the post by Dmbusa and my brief mention of the flow of money, here are my thoughts on the subject.

The nights are drawing in so we get the evening racing at Kempton and Wolverhampton to aim at. I recorded a video of me trading the 18:10 at Wolverhampton tonight....well I thought I did only to realise I had not pressed record!! :lol:

I was trading from the end of the 17:40 and simply used £5 and £10 stakes until about 10 minutes before the start of the race. I ended up with £6 green. Okay so not a massive return but I only did it to get a feel for what was happening in the hope it may then benefit some of the newer traders. I have watched evening markets like this before but I wanted to do it just before I wrote this post so I can have fresh thoughts in my mind.

As soon as the preceding race finished it was obvious that some traders and perhaps some BOTS switched their focus to the next race. It may seem a bit crazy to start 30 minutes out but clearly it is happening. As the money doesn't carry a "human" or "BOT" tag I cannot be certain who was offering the money. What I noticed was even at that early stage there was plenty of spoof money around. Often it was separated by 1 tick and as soon as the front amount was matching the whole lot would disappear. This just kept occurring but what surprised me was the large amounts going through the market. There were plenty of £2K £3K and £4K amounts and they were thrown in either way above or way below the offer prices. The market did settle back down but if you had been scalping then it would have been a worrying sphincter moment!!

It seems to have a start, middle and end section of early trading before the prices from the course come through and other players join the market. Yes I know that sounds a bit obvious but I'm not sure what else to say. My specialist subject "Statin' the bleedin' obvious!!" :D The money flow rose just as the preceding race finished and it lasted about 3-4 minutes. It then died away and the larger bets then started pushing the price around. That then died off and the market settled again with fairly simple movement resumed.

So what does that mean? If you time it correctly you can often move in and steal a couple of ticks but as soon as you see the money increase it becomes very hairy!! If you have a strong nerve you can often watch how the spikes drive the price up and/or down and then place small orders close to the high and low. I find that quite often another little burst of money will occur and the pattern will repeat. I would not advise trading too close to the offer price when the large orders come through, it is better to sit out of the money and let the market find you. That way if your order is matched you should get time to assess your position and decide if you should cut out or hold on. With practice this can work but if you're too close to the offer price then you'll find yourself in trouble as it can move straight through in the blink of eye.

When the market starts to build you can often find the trend is more apparent if you have been watching how the money has been changing the prices.

In the phases I suggest the following

1. Early: Expect a few 2 3 or 4 tick moves as fresh money enters the market. Do not scalp here, try and look for the edges and take 3-4 ticks. You will have to give it time to match your orders so use small stakes.

2. Middle: This is where large lumps seem to hit the market so stay away unless you can see a pattern. If you can then place small orders 5 6 or even 7 ticks away from the offer price. If you get matched you are likely to make a profit if you fail to get matched then you have lost nothing! NOTE: If you have enough money in your bank then do not cancel the orders, keep them in the market as this should give you an excellent queue position. When the price, or should I say if the price comes to your order it can mean you can place an order just before your queued order and this will offer a good chance of a profit as it should match your initial order quickly as you'll be very near the front of the queue if not at the front!

3. Late. This is close to the period where other players come to the market so be patient and watch as battle between backers and layers ensues. If you see pattern then place an order but if it is skittish and movements are violent then keep watching and wait for it to settle. You will find that the more you watch the more confident you will be of placing an order in the correct place.

Sorry if that's a bit jumbled, I wrote it on the fly without preparation. Please feel free to contribute or ask questions, I will try and answer.

JG
stevequal
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Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:36 am

So in summary, your recommendation is that after the last race has finished head to the next race where real money enters the market and offer money a few ticks above or below the current price and then trade out when it heads back?
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JollyGreen
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stevequal wrote:So in summary, your recommendation is that after the last race has finished head to the next race where real money enters the market and offer money a few ticks above or below the current price and then trade out when it heads back?
It depends on you to a certain extent. Some people will not want to do it but if you want to look at the markets early then it seems there are opportunities.

You will also find it helps to improve market reading skills.....I hope!
stevequal
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As a rule, in recent times I've always tried to enter the market as close as possible to insure liquidity and avoid manipulation. But, that phase on the markets is something I'll have another look at.
redtra
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:27 pm

JollyGreen wrote:
You will also find it helps to improve market reading skills.....I hope!
I've not tried looking at a race 30 mins before the start because I thought the prices wouldn't move...but from what you say if it helps me read the markets, then I will give it a go...thanks!
steven1976
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The seperation of money by 1 tick as you call it jolly I would say is one of the most important set ups to understand for scalping.
Groovyelms
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as allways thanks to JG...some really helpfull pointers..
Groovy :idea:
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JollyGreen
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Groovyelms wrote:as allways thanks to JG...some really helpfull pointers..
Groovy :idea:
Thanks Groovy! I just wanted people to explore the markets and hopefully learn a bit more about them. Obviously I would not suggest large stakes and wouldn't normally advocate trading so early but the single evening markets are slightly different.
Groovyelms
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JollyGreen wrote:
Groovyelms wrote:as allways thanks to JG...some really helpfull pointers..
Groovy :idea:
Thanks Groovy! I just wanted people to explore the markets and hopefully learn a bit more about them. Obviously I would not suggest large stakes and wouldn't normally advocate trading so early but the single evening markets are slightly different.
Interesting as last nights evening racing went ok overall for me..
But I do remember being up early on one of the races.. then got trashed!! and waited untill nearer the off and managed a small green at the end... your earlier comments on the flow of money point to why this may have happened... tnx again Groovy :idea:
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JollyGreen
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stevequal wrote:As a rule, in recent times I've always tried to enter the market as close as possible to insure liquidity and avoid manipulation. But, that phase on the markets is something I'll have another look at.
Thanks Steven. It is often a sign that someone is trying to obfuscate things. This is just my personal view but I think the first amount is a taster, a kind of warning signal. If it starts to erode too quickly the owner has time to think about the position and give a Dragon's Den answer "I'm out!"

You will see a similar ploy on a drifting horse in normal markets. The spoofer queues money above the high point to give the impression that is the true ceiling. They then place lay money to attract the backers. If they get a few takers they suddenly withdraw the money above and the price takes off. It is usually accompanied by the screams of the backers shouting "WTF!!"

I find the best way to combat that is to be cautious and wait. I tend to assume it will drift but I have an "if" so to speak, so I wait. I then let the spoofer both set and spring their trap before I quickly join with a lay. What tends to happen is the market overreacts as backers chase their losing position. This chasing forces the market to move much quicker than normal so you must be quick and you must not be greedy. I stress not being greedy and this is why. When a market does overreact in this way it can often push beyond the acceptable high. When this false high is recognised it will reverse back in so quickly you can get caught out.

How do you spot this false high? Generally I look at the amounts traded and compare them to earlier amounts. If you see thin amounts traded it can often suggest it has been caused by overreaction so be ready for the reverse. If however the amounts continue to rise then you may be onto a real big drift so squeeze the lemon for as much as you can get and then squeeze the pips too!!

If you would like to ask questions then please feel free. This is general advice, obviously I cannot give specific amounts or ratios..sorry!
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JollyGreen
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Groovyelms wrote:Interesting as last nights evening racing went ok overall for me..
But I do remember being up early on one of the races.. then got trashed!! and waited untill nearer the off and managed a small green at the end... your earlier comments on the flow of money point to why this may have happened... tnx again Groovy :idea:
Now that is what I like to read, well done Groovy! :mrgreen:

What tends to happen is new/novice traders make a profit and then get caught out. Sometimes it can be their fault sometimes they get caught by a crazy spike. Either way, they tend to spit the dummy and walk away. You clearly took on board what I said, "sit, wait and watch as you will learn more and probably spot an opportunity" (loose description). Even if you fail to recoup the earlier loss, you will be learning more about the market and improving even though it may not feel like it. A few night's later you will be sat in front of a market and you'll say "Wait a minute, this is similar to what happened to me on Tuesday evening" You then find yourself abstaining as you feel it is dodgy or you make a quick profit as you feel you know what is happening.

I hope that bit of waffle makes sense? :lol:
redtra
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:27 pm

JollyGreen wrote:The nights are drawing in so we get the evening racing at Kempton and Wolverhampton to aim at. I recorded a video of me trading the 18:10 at Wolverhampton tonight....well I thought I did only to realise I had not pressed record!! :lol: JG
Any chance of trying it again JollyGreen? I would love to see how you scalp, it would be a brilliant way to compare and learn from! :D
dmbusa
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:33 am

Hi Jolly

What you have described is what happened to me in the post you mentioned, other than i didn't cut my losses and let it run.

What you said has helped to make sense of what I saw and will no doubt help me to see it happening again and thus not get caught out as often

So thank you for a great helpful post.

Simon
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JollyGreen
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

redtra wrote:
JollyGreen wrote:The nights are drawing in so we get the evening racing at Kempton and Wolverhampton to aim at. I recorded a video of me trading the 18:10 at Wolverhampton tonight....well I thought I did only to realise I had not pressed record!! :lol: JG
Any chance of trying it again JollyGreen? I would love to see how you scalp, it would be a brilliant way to compare and learn from! :D
I'll see what I can do but no promises. To be honest I don't trade the evening markets these days but I needed to get some fresh data so I could write the post to help the new/novice traders on the site.

Here's the issue. When I put up a video it gets copied in some form and used elsewhere either to berate me or Bet Angel in general. Now I know that none of the loyal members on here would do that but there are lurkers who would do so at the drop of a hat. Let me speak with Peter and see what he thinks.

JG
steven1976
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Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am

Live by the sword Jolly! :D :lol:
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