Front running
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
I keep seeing small stakes like 0 or 1 at the front of the book on certain markets. Then if im behind that i should be matched but suddenly silly amounts are matched off that 0 or 1 pound. Is this a way BF are front running on the book?
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
I see it easiest on ausy races early when there is a wide spread.
Let's say there is a spread of money about 3s and 5s. I see a matched bet seem to appear to land on the book at 3s so I offer lay money of say 50quid at 3s at the last traded price. I then see regular 0 or 1 pound appear in front of my 50 quid and suddenly it appears an amount of say 60 quid is matched that never felt was there, so I offer 20 quid at 3.05 and the same happens an amount of 0 arrives at 3.10 and suddenly an amount is matched say of 100 pound but never touches me whilst there is such a wide spread. Its as though if they have the front position in a queue they can just match up any amount they want.
Just seems strange how on these wide spreads early on there is amounts matching in front of me but they won't touch me until the spread is much tighter.
Let's say there is a spread of money about 3s and 5s. I see a matched bet seem to appear to land on the book at 3s so I offer lay money of say 50quid at 3s at the last traded price. I then see regular 0 or 1 pound appear in front of my 50 quid and suddenly it appears an amount of say 60 quid is matched that never felt was there, so I offer 20 quid at 3.05 and the same happens an amount of 0 arrives at 3.10 and suddenly an amount is matched say of 100 pound but never touches me whilst there is such a wide spread. Its as though if they have the front position in a queue they can just match up any amount they want.
Just seems strange how on these wide spreads early on there is amounts matching in front of me but they won't touch me until the spread is much tighter.
Steven,
I trade the Aus markets too and can relate to what you are talking about.
Originally I had thought this was just a simple bot with logic just to get in front of any money at the top/bottom of traded prices.
Initially I thought the matched amounts was just the xm'er doing its thing, yet now I am not so sure. I am half of the view that it is an advanced bot that is trying to bait other bots into firing. Logic being is that once other money arrives it is taken ultra fast and do not see the money hit the market (I refresh at 200ms with 60 ping though). Again, the matched money could just be a bot self matching to indeed kick off more bots.
Over the last few months when betting on markets outside of horse racing (in particular NRL) when I put a bet in a bot instantly puts a counter bet in before my own. Again, I am of the view that this bot is trying to make me take a lower price.
I know what your talking about, but not smart enough to know exactly what it is.
I trade the Aus markets too and can relate to what you are talking about.
Originally I had thought this was just a simple bot with logic just to get in front of any money at the top/bottom of traded prices.
Initially I thought the matched amounts was just the xm'er doing its thing, yet now I am not so sure. I am half of the view that it is an advanced bot that is trying to bait other bots into firing. Logic being is that once other money arrives it is taken ultra fast and do not see the money hit the market (I refresh at 200ms with 60 ping though). Again, the matched money could just be a bot self matching to indeed kick off more bots.
Over the last few months when betting on markets outside of horse racing (in particular NRL) when I put a bet in a bot instantly puts a counter bet in before my own. Again, I am of the view that this bot is trying to make me take a lower price.
I know what your talking about, but not smart enough to know exactly what it is.
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
At least I know I'm not alone if I'm going mental!
It was actually a video or gif file, switesh put up a while back that got me seeing it happen.he had a nice position at 5.9 near front of the book and then he got 6s on the lay as well if I remember, and he tried slotting in a back bet at 6.2s thinking he was both sides of the book and it shot through him. This is kind of what I imagine is happening. I have a good position say at 3s and another position further behind. I put a back bet in at 3.05 being silly, and it shoots away through me on the wide spread.
Probably not explained it well but its how it flashes out the exact amount down to a zero balance without touching a bean of mine that just feels like there is some magic being worked.
It was actually a video or gif file, switesh put up a while back that got me seeing it happen.he had a nice position at 5.9 near front of the book and then he got 6s on the lay as well if I remember, and he tried slotting in a back bet at 6.2s thinking he was both sides of the book and it shot through him. This is kind of what I imagine is happening. I have a good position say at 3s and another position further behind. I put a back bet in at 3.05 being silly, and it shoots away through me on the wide spread.
Probably not explained it well but its how it flashes out the exact amount down to a zero balance without touching a bean of mine that just feels like there is some magic being worked.
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Wainwright
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:10 pm
JayBee - do you get hassle from Betfair for using sub-minimum bets ?
I think I heard somewhere that BF would tolerate them for greening purposes but would eventually clamp down if used as a deliberate strategy. There seem to be plenty around at higher odds on every race though, so maybe not ?
I think I heard somewhere that BF would tolerate them for greening purposes but would eventually clamp down if used as a deliberate strategy. There seem to be plenty around at higher odds on every race though, so maybe not ?
No complaints thus far. Though it's not as though I am firing them in left, right and centre.Wainwright wrote:JayBee - do you get hassle from Betfair for using sub-minimum bets ?
I think I heard somewhere that BF would tolerate them for greening purposes but would eventually clamp down if used as a deliberate strategy. There seem to be plenty around at higher odds on every race though, so maybe not ?
However, I would like more accommodation of bots and botting techniques. After all, Betfair must want the liquidity and a 10p bet matched is another ha'penny in the pot for them.
If they offer maker/taker and rebates then I've got all the liquidity they want.
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CaerMyrddin
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am
Hi Steven, this is something I spotted some time a go and is very suspicious. Honestly can't tell if there's another software that shows stakes to the penny/cent, but if there aren't it can only be done by an 'insider', you'd think? They leave nothing behind, to back or lay...Probably not explained it well but its how it flashes out the exact amount down to a zero balance without touching a bean of mine that just feels like there is some magic being worked.
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
Hi CaerMyrddin,CaerMyrddin wrote:Hi Steven, this is something I spotted some time a go and is very suspicious. Honestly can't tell if there's another software that shows stakes to the penny/cent, but if there aren't it can only be done by an 'insider', you'd think? They leave nothing behind, to back or lay...Probably not explained it well but its how it flashes out the exact amount down to a zero balance without touching a bean of mine that just feels like there is some magic being worked.
Its easiest to see on weak markets such as an Ausy pre race early on, rather than spotting it on UK markets packed with money that can be backed down slowly or quickly (as BF or their market makers feel it best benefits them)!
The other software doesnt show it from data ive collected, its just what i see when there is a wide spread and you can see say 30 or 40 quid arrive on one side where there was only a zero stake and backing out immediately and leaving exactly a zero stake. Its obviously to quick for 2 separate people to have entered odd random stakes and matched straight out to leave a zero balance again. It was explained to me that it is a refresh issue with the ladder that I use but I didnt really buy that as these can be Ausy races where about 100 quid has been matched 8 mins out and then all of a sudden they appear.
They certainly have the ability to beat inplay delays as well Id say from what i have seen, so i would have to say it likely is bf, unless they allow companies the keys to the cookie jar in return for providing liquidity.
I bet it could catch a few bots out that are set to trigger at last traded price if they are not careful.