today I was playing with some usa racing. And all of a sudden in a market with only 10k matched a 4k bet flashed and got matched as if there's plenty of money. I got intrigued by that and lunched camtasia and started recording. Ten minutes later I got a similar one. It's a 5k bet. I have edited the video playing it backwards to get the frames were flashed sum of 2062 appears. Also at the end at 55sec you can see the 5k bet appears on BF chart. Is that cross matching or what?
Also have to mention that
***Emerald (US) 24th Aug : R4 6f Claim*** got off 30sec earlier.
strange volumes on usa markets
here is the video: http://youtu.be/OZ4wZqlu-Fc
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convoysur-2
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i see this all the time ,im convinced it one or 2 people self matching..
the other night i was in a low liquidity football over 1.5 and i had 6.00 euro taken all in 1 pennys .600 of them,just kept taking 1p of like 10 mins..there are some strange things do go on in the markets,,
the other night i was in a low liquidity football over 1.5 and i had 6.00 euro taken all in 1 pennys .600 of them,just kept taking 1p of like 10 mins..there are some strange things do go on in the markets,,
ok, let's say that it is self matching. Then what's the point of all this? The race is at the off time. And also has no inplay. At Woodb 23:58 the race had only 6k matched. With "big" bet of 4k it shows now 10k. That surprised me. How can a 6k market absorb a 4k bet in 1 second.
At the beginning of the video Monm 00:09 there are 22k. In just 1sec it goes up to 29k.
Maybe somebody has a mission to "boost" the liquidity figures and get some favors from bf for that??
At the beginning of the video Monm 00:09 there are 22k. In just 1sec it goes up to 29k.
Maybe somebody has a mission to "boost" the liquidity figures and get some favors from bf for that??
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convoysur-2
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i dont know how the self matching works,to be honest ,but some one on this forum who knows much more about it,showed me an email from betfair giving him permission to to this to add liquidity to markets,,bacically it means that they can back and lay at the same price and make money from it..something like that,, 
but some of the more experienced guys on here could explain it better im sure,,
, i mean when you see 5k getting matched back and lay side in mili seconds something is up...it happens all the time,i see it all the time but i dont really know what the hell they are doing ,how or why ?
Marc
but some of the more experienced guys on here could explain it better im sure,,
, i mean when you see 5k getting matched back and lay side in mili seconds something is up...it happens all the time,i see it all the time but i dont really know what the hell they are doing ,how or why ?
Marc
You can also factor in bot baiting.
I have bots that have triggers that are in part conditional on volume.
I've said in the past it's war and a battle of bots.
Finally factor in there is only so much profit available. I think about profit available by volume. As a rough guide I look for $20 all green per $70,000 of volume.
I have bots that have triggers that are in part conditional on volume.
I've said in the past it's war and a battle of bots.
Finally factor in there is only so much profit available. I think about profit available by volume. As a rough guide I look for $20 all green per $70,000 of volume.
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steven1976
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Ill give an example of how self matching can work in my opinion.
You set up a bot that sits matching its own money all day long at around 11s. Nothing enters the market so the bot keeps matching its own money creating an impression of a market.
Then at some point a newbie or a real backer decides they have seen an opportunity within the market and believe it is about to trade down from seeing all the backers in the market, so they enter 50 pounds. Immediately, the market moves against the 50 pounds because all the money around the price is from the same market maker (or the majority) and the price pushes up. It appears lots of people are still backing at around 11.5/12 and therefore the newbie enters another 50 quid. The market maker moves more aggressively against the newbie and he gets pissed off thinking all them other backers he saw will help his position when actually, it was just the market maker washing trades and his 100 quid. Before he knows it, its out at 16s and a big loss so he decides to gamble and let it go in play.
The race goes in play and the market makers sit matching their money at a higher price making one side of the book look stronger than the other. As the race goes on the horse comes no where near the front so the beginner loses their 100 quid. Alternatively, the horse shows a bit of form coming down the last furlong so it is slowly brought back down. The beginner is so happy to see the first bit of green that he gets out and takes his 5 pound profit.
Same could be done on the favourite. A bot sits matching money 1hr before the off and a real back bet comes in at say 2.4 for 5K on the favourite, the market maker then matches up through their own money to create a new price level. They sit there aggressively making a new price level at 3s until it becomes the new range. Then slowly dripping money out the market by putting a wall of money on one side and keeping it weak on the other side for people to jump in front of and sell it off to other traders by controlling the market with size of bets.
You set up a bot that sits matching its own money all day long at around 11s. Nothing enters the market so the bot keeps matching its own money creating an impression of a market.
Then at some point a newbie or a real backer decides they have seen an opportunity within the market and believe it is about to trade down from seeing all the backers in the market, so they enter 50 pounds. Immediately, the market moves against the 50 pounds because all the money around the price is from the same market maker (or the majority) and the price pushes up. It appears lots of people are still backing at around 11.5/12 and therefore the newbie enters another 50 quid. The market maker moves more aggressively against the newbie and he gets pissed off thinking all them other backers he saw will help his position when actually, it was just the market maker washing trades and his 100 quid. Before he knows it, its out at 16s and a big loss so he decides to gamble and let it go in play.
The race goes in play and the market makers sit matching their money at a higher price making one side of the book look stronger than the other. As the race goes on the horse comes no where near the front so the beginner loses their 100 quid. Alternatively, the horse shows a bit of form coming down the last furlong so it is slowly brought back down. The beginner is so happy to see the first bit of green that he gets out and takes his 5 pound profit.
Same could be done on the favourite. A bot sits matching money 1hr before the off and a real back bet comes in at say 2.4 for 5K on the favourite, the market maker then matches up through their own money to create a new price level. They sit there aggressively making a new price level at 3s until it becomes the new range. Then slowly dripping money out the market by putting a wall of money on one side and keeping it weak on the other side for people to jump in front of and sell it off to other traders by controlling the market with size of bets.
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steven1976
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I mentioned in another thread that you actually see the amounts arriving on the ladder in other software. I think BA have now allowed this feature, although Ive not downloaded it yet and tried it and will do at the weekend when back home at the weekend.gutuami wrote:ok, let's say that it is self matching. Then what's the point of all this? The race is at the off time. And also has no inplay. At Woodb 23:58 the race had only 6k matched. With "big" bet of 4k it shows now 10k. That surprised me. How can a 6k market absorb a 4k bet in 1 second.
At the beginning of the video Monm 00:09 there are 22k. In just 1sec it goes up to 29k.
Maybe somebody has a mission to "boost" the liquidity figures and get some favors from bf for that??
I was advised when i first spotted it that it was a refresh issue with the software I was using but I think it was more likely a liquidity bot.
Its easiest to see in early markets that are very gappy. You will quite often see a zero amount or 1 pound amount and if it has the front of the queue it seems to have random amounts just suddenly hit it and match out for the exact same amount. Its harder to spot on UK markets but i do see it going in the gap now and again but its easier to see on other weaker markets early.
It can be useful for some markets.
That's what it distills down to at the end of the day, in both Pre and In Play racing. It doesn't really matter who's the driving force is behind it; whether it is an individual, company or Betfair themselves. You have to work around it.gazuty wrote: I've said in the past it's war and a battle of bots.
Either way, There are very slim pickings around these days
Yesterday I was firing in >1000 bets an hour and only getting matched on a very small percentage, but its still enough to turn a profit each month.
It's most likely self matching, but that could be for any reason. But I would guess it's being used to swap money between accounts. Betfair almost encourage this through their tough enforcement of premium charges. If you wanted to try and 'swap' money you would go to quiet market, like US, racing and do it there.
In terms of the over all picture and odd amounts appearing on ladders you have a number of complications.
Cross matching has vastly confused the picture because money can appear and vanish almost at random in or out of the money. Betfair are now doing cross market, cross matching as well so that's even more confusing. Client sided implementation is fairly random as well, so that's confusing.
But on the client side there has been this, incorrect in my view, race to try and appear the slickest fastest piece of software. So the tricks vendors have used to mimic what the client feels is faster operation has lead to basically misleading information getting pumped across to users. So TBH, I don't think you can really look at that data, you need a really clean cut of it to make an real judgement. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and effort.
In terms of the over all picture and odd amounts appearing on ladders you have a number of complications.
Cross matching has vastly confused the picture because money can appear and vanish almost at random in or out of the money. Betfair are now doing cross market, cross matching as well so that's even more confusing. Client sided implementation is fairly random as well, so that's confusing.
But on the client side there has been this, incorrect in my view, race to try and appear the slickest fastest piece of software. So the tricks vendors have used to mimic what the client feels is faster operation has lead to basically misleading information getting pumped across to users. So TBH, I don't think you can really look at that data, you need a really clean cut of it to make an real judgement. Otherwise you are just wasting your time and effort.
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steven1976
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Are betfair okay with people swapping money/ generating commissions or is it something you have to make them aware of in advance Peter?
I asked them in the past when I first saw it happening, if I could do it without getting flagged for PC avoidance or anything suspicious and they said it would be fine as they would mark my account to allow it. I don't do it as I don't do this for a living but curious if they allow it for everyone as long as you have accounts linked?
Ste
I asked them in the past when I first saw it happening, if I could do it without getting flagged for PC avoidance or anything suspicious and they said it would be fine as they would mark my account to allow it. I don't do it as I don't do this for a living but curious if they allow it for everyone as long as you have accounts linked?
Ste
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steven1976
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With the cross market, cross matching, do you have a simple example of how this works or able to do a video for your blog? I've no intention of trying to take advantage of it, just curious if it means do I back/offer Bolton at 1.5 when the best price is 1.4 on offer on match odds market , do I get matched over at the 2.5 market for the Bolton game, or at a totally independent market over at man u?
They have excellent fraud detection systems at the back end as I understand it.steven1976 wrote:Are betfair okay with people swapping money/ generating commissions or is it something you have to make them aware of in advance Peter?
I guess anything that generates commission and holds the top line up probably wouldn't be considered an issue? It's not avoiding PC just morphing it into another revenue stream.
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steven1976
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Hi Peter, i thought as much, just thought I'd ask because I wouldn't like to think some of the lads go about trying to generate commission and end up with their accounts locked. I guess the only time it would be an issue is if you have multiple accounts that are not linked on different PC levels and haven't advised BF.