how do they scan thousands of markets so fast?

[andy28]

It could also be BF algorithms at work

I also think so. they bet on explicit values themselves

I think Andy's talking about cross-matching. Your back bet at 1.5 may have been cross-matched, which would explain why it was taken quickly even if you were right about nobody trading the market.

Correct

[numberzero]

It is important because cross-matching may be at work. It's not possible for me to place a bet on a market I'm sure nobody is watching because I don't have your psychic abilities and wouldn't know how many people are watching markets.

I find it absolutely incredible that you can place a back bet at 1.5 when bookies are offering 2.2 and you're surprised it gets taken quickly. What else would you expect?

If you take a look at the automation section here you'll find Dallas wrote a fat-finger bot to catch bets at extreme prices and many people may have downloaded the template or written their own, so I'd suspect hundreds of people are doing it. There is no boogeyman numberzero, other than in children's fairytales.

As far as I understand, if you use primitive bots like a fat finger then you need to create a rule for each market separately. The bot does not see what odds should be in reality (does not scan the bookmaker). In my case, this is a powerful tool that instantly determines the right odds in many markets at the same time.
Such situation...i come to the market "Both teams to score" and odds at the moment, for example, are : back 1.2 lay 1.3 . The market is not actively traded,
only one bot besides me. And suddenly someone gives back 2.9 to the fact that the second team will not score 5 minutes before the end. Perhaps someone was wrong. But I do not have time to pick up this bet because the bot is ahead of me. I see an opportunity instantly but I can't get ahead of the bot. And do not say that someone set the rule for this market, in which there was almost no trading.
This is real life example.

[Derek27]

It is important because cross-matching may be at work. It's not possible for me to place a bet on a market I'm sure nobody is watching because I don't have your psychic abilities and wouldn't know how many people are watching markets.

I find it absolutely incredible that you can place a back bet at 1.5 when bookies are offering 2.2 and you're surprised it gets taken quickly. What else would you expect?

If you take a look at the automation section here you'll find Dallas wrote a fat-finger bot to catch bets at extreme prices and many people may have downloaded the template or written their own, so I'd suspect hundreds of people are doing it. There is no boogeyman numberzero, other than in children's fairytales.

As far as I understand, if you use primitive bots like a fat finger then you need to create a rule for each market separately. The bot does not see what odds should be in reality (does not scan the bookmaker). In my case, this is a powerful tool that instantly determines the right odds in many markets at the same time.
Such situation...i come to the market "Both teams to score" and odds at the moment, for example, are : back 1.2 lay 1.3 . The market is not actively traded,
only one bot besides me. And suddenly someone gives back 2.9 to the fact that the second team will not score 5 minutes before the end. Perhaps someone was wrong. But I do not have time to pick up this bet because the bot is ahead of me. And do not say that someone set the rule for this market, in which there was almost no trading.
This is real life example.

Your understanding is totally wrong, and I wasn't talking about "primitive" bots. A fat finger bot isn't necessarily primitive, a bot is as sophisticated as the detail you put into it. If a horse is trading at 3.0 pre-race and somebody takes the price down to 1.2, it has to be a fat finger and any bot can take advantage of it.

Bookies are not an accurate assessment of a selection's chances of winning due to a high and varying overround, and often they get it completely wrong. The exchange prices are far more efficient, and from my days of arbing, I've gathered the exchange often moves before the bookies do. Bookies follow the exchange.

As for your example, when the prices were 1.2/1.3 and the price jumped up to 2.9, are you talking about pre-match or in-play?

[numberzero]

Your understanding is totally wrong, and I wasn't talking about "primitive" bots. A fat finger bot isn't necessarily primitive, a bot is as sophisticated as the detail you put into it.

Bookies are not an accurate assessment of a selection's chances of winning due to a high and varying overround, and often they get it completely wrong. The exchange prices are far more efficient, and from my days of arbing, I've gathered the exchange often moves before the bookies do.

As for your example, when the prices were 1.2/1.3 and the price jumped up to 2.9, are you talking about pre-match or in-play?

I meant that in such a bot you need to set the parameters manually for each of the markets.Fat-finger bot does not have access to real odds for the current situation in the match
"
As for your example, when the prices were 1.2/1.3 and the price jumped up to 2.9, are you talking about pre-match or in-play?"

In-play.

[numberzero]

I just want to say that someone has a unique tool that quickly scans all the markets, compares bets with bookmakers and buys everything profitable. Yes, bookmakers sometimes make mistakes, but not so often, and since the bot takes explicit 100% + values, these bookmaker errors are not critical for bot's owner.
And it is impossible to compete with him either by hand or with the help of scanners. That's why I asked how is this possible?

I understand that the owner of this bot is unlikely to appear here But I think I'm right, there is no cross-matching at the "both teams to score" market or some other markets but it is almost impossible to buy a profitable amount first, even being on the market

[Derek27]

Your understanding is totally wrong, and I wasn't talking about "primitive" bots. A fat finger bot isn't necessarily primitive, a bot is as sophisticated as the detail you put into it.

Bookies are not an accurate assessment of a selection's chances of winning due to a high and varying overround, and often they get it completely wrong. The exchange prices are far more efficient, and from my days of arbing, I've gathered the exchange often moves before the bookies do.

As for your example, when the prices were 1.2/1.3 and the price jumped up to 2.9, are you talking about pre-match or in-play?

I meant that in such a bot you need to set the parameters manually for each of the markets.Fat-finger bot does not have access to real odds for the current situation in the match
"
As for your example, when the prices were 1.2/1.3 and the price jumped up to 2.9, are you talking about pre-match or in-play?"

In-play.

How much experience do you actually have with botting? And do you even understand what a fat finger is?

If a fat finger back bet takes the lay overround down to 120%, you don't need the real odds. You know the real odds are 100% and you've been handed an easy 20% profit, even more if you can grab the fat finger.

If you're trading in-play and the price jumps from 1.2 to 2.9 briefly and you don't get on, the reason is really simple. There is a 5-second delay from placing your bet to the bet hitting the market and some people are quicker than you. Even if bots didn't exist, some people will always be quicker than you. When I first played around with football in the early days of in-play betting, I was always beaten to any price I went for and didn't bat an eyelid. That's what I'd expect with hundreds of users placing bets.

If you have a strategy that requires placing a bet as soon as you see the price available, you can't realistically do that in-play and expect to be matched every time. In the 5 seconds it takes your bet to hit the market, somebody, even a manual trader, will have anticipated it and have their bet in first. I can assure you it's not the boogeyman.

[Derek27]

I just want to say that someone has a unique tool that quickly scans all the markets, compares bets with bookmakers and buys everything profitable. Yes, bookmakers sometimes make mistakes, but not so often, and since the bot takes explicit 100% + values, these bookmaker errors are not critical for bot's owner.
And it is impossible to compete with him either by hand or with the help of scanners. That's why I asked how is this possible?

I understand that the owner of this bot is unlikely to appear here But I think I'm right, there is no cross-matching at the "both teams to score" market or some other markets but it is almost impossible to buy a profitable amount first, even being on the market

You're talking absolute bollocks numberzero. Bookies constantly make mistakes, every day, that's why it's so easy to win with bookies and why all the successful punters get restricted.

Bookie's prices, whether they make errors or not, are completely irrelevant to most exchange bots, not many of them will care about bookie prices.

This boogeyman with the bot that keeps beating you is just a figment of your imagination. There are many successful players on Betfair and you're money is going into all of our accounts.

[napshnap]

numberzero

1) There're tons of bots operate at millisecond speed in markets (few of them are mine).
2) It's totally possible to build price prediction models using fundamentals only (form, past results, ratings and etc.) and it's absolutely not necessary for predicted price to be exactly close to some "final price" (like SP), you can set upper and/or lower bounds and steal everything that appears out of that range, that your model considers to be a value.

[Euler]

It could also be BF algorithms at work

If it's football this is probably what it is.

You have to cope with XM and XMXM on football. So a lot of bets are virtual bets and never actually exist.

[sionascaig]

And some are not so clever...

On very gappy unformed market there is clearly bots at work picking away at the back / lay prices or just jumping ahead of current best price, usually for min stake amounts (or less).

In those markets I usually put something in just to see if a bot is at work & if so, how far I can make it walk up or down the gap. It gives you a good feel for what the bots think is value.

Got matched at 2's once for Haaland to have one or more shots on goal when he was odds on to score - that made me smile....

edit - v dead baseball markets used to be a good place to try this out. the money sitting there early is almost certainly placed by a bot in value positions and some of it will move with you to its limit on both sides of the book.

[numberzero]

Ok..probably you trade only liquid matches .Go to the illiquid match market, tennis itf or utr or football small markets. You will see that 1 bot works (2 rarity), and the algorithm of this bot is the same everywhere. It is easy to understand if you trade. if there was no this super bot on the exchange, half of the markets would be empty
This bot buys all the value bets promptly, it is less noticeable on the popular matches because it is lost in the amount of money, but it is there... believe me.
I know what I'm talking about. More than 5 years ago I traded these markets and made a profit, but now there is a bot everywhere and he steals almost all the profitable trades from me.

[napshnap]

Ok..probably you trade only liquid matches .Go to the illiquid match market, tennis itf or utr or football small markets. You will see that 1 bot works (2 rarity), and the algorithm of this bot is the same everywhere. It is easy to understand if you trade. if there was no this super bot on the exchange, half of the markets would be empty
This bot buys all the value bets promptly, it is less noticeable on the popular matches because it is lost in the amount of money, but it is there... believe me.
I know what I'm talking about. More than 5 years ago I traded these markets and made a profit, but now there is a bot everywhere and he steals almost all the profitable trades from me.

You didn't read my post, did you?

[sionascaig]

No, I'm talking about very illiquid markets - its exactly like napshnap says above... if a bets in a bots value range it will get snapped up really quickly.

They have gone to the trouble of building a model to determine where value lies and the bots are just sitting there waiting to snap things up (ignoring xm and fat fingers etc). Its not one bot over all markets its lots of bots over small groups of markets.

As I said you can see them active by getting them to move up & down the market - some respond instantly, others 20 to 30 secs and it may depend on the size of stake you use.

The point being you wont get snapped up if you are within their value range, which of course means you can write a bot to work out the value range then have a bot war - been in a few of those !

[Derek27]

Ok..probably you trade only liquid matches .Go to the illiquid match market, tennis itf or utr or football small markets. You will see that 1 bot works (2 rarity), and the algorithm of this bot is the same everywhere. It is easy to understand if you trade. if there was no this super bot on the exchange, half of the markets would be empty
This bot buys all the value bets promptly, it is less noticeable on the popular matches because it is lost in the amount of money, but it is there... believe me.
I know what I'm talking about. More than 5 years ago I traded these markets and made a profit, but now there is a bot everywhere and he steals almost all the profitable trades from me.

Five years ago you used to steal people's money but now they're stealing your money? It's called betting numberzero, winning and losing, both perfectly legal!