Betfair have scrapped the Premium Charge

[Euler]

Can I just clarify....is the PC scrapped with immediate effect or will Betfair still be levying the PC until the Expert Fee arrives in early January? Thanks.

Final PC statement will be up Monday 6th Jan for preceding week; 1st Expert statement will be up Monday 13th Jan for the week 6-12 Jan.... so sometime in between will disappear forever. Also think i read that money will be coming out on a Monday lunchtime rather than a Wednesday.

Correct

[tumby]

Personally this is good for me, I am a 20% PC payer but was approaching the big step up. My lifetime commission/lifetime profits ratio is around 2.5% so I was very well aware that I was heading to the 60% tier. Consequently I had developed a few bots to churn commission and hope that they would get me into the 40% tier, although they had a lot of ground to make up given my commission % so far.
With this announcement I have turned my bots off, I don't need them anymore, I won't make £100k in a 52 week period so there's no need. I imagine there will be others in my situation turning bots off.

So if my situation is repeated across the platform I expect to see a noticeable drop in volumes.

I imagine there are many way more successful traders out there that do a large volume of commission generating bots, if a proportion of these get shut down it could be a noticeable effect on volumes. I certainly can't see any obvious argument to see volumes increasing as a result of this change.

So for me I'm delighted, but for the platform I'm not so sure this is going to be that good.

[Naffman]

Personally this is good for me, I am a 20% PC payer but was approaching the big step up. My lifetime commission/lifetime profits ratio is around 2.5% so I was very well aware that I was heading to the 60% tier. Consequently I had developed a few bots to churn commission and hope that they would get me into the 40% tier, although they had a lot of ground to make up given my commission % so far.
With this announcement I have turned my bots off, I don't need them anymore, I won't make £100k in a 52 week period so there's no need. I imagine there will be others in my situation turning bots off.

So if my situation is repeated across the platform I expect to see a noticeable drop in volumes.

I imagine there are many way more successful traders out there that do a large volume of commission generating bots, if a proportion of these get shut down it could be a noticeable effect on volumes. I certainly can't see any obvious argument to see volumes increasing as a result of this change.

So for me I'm delighted, but for the platform I'm not so sure this is going to be that good.

Yeah 2.5% is very low, you must win just about every bet you place! Getting that up to 10%+ would've been hard work and would've required a lot of risk. Do you think you would have quit if you were placed on the 60% rate?

[Derek27]

Great news, though no reduction in complexity. Still need to get my head around it, not to mention a new set of spreadsheets.

I hope all the traders who quit due to PC didn't close their accounts.

[Euler]

Great news, though no reduction in complexity. Still need to get my head around it, not to mention a new set of spreadsheets.

I hope all the traders who quit due to PC didn't close their accounts.

Check out the ShaunWhite thread, you were getting a few worried

[jimrobo]

Just caught up.

Totally crazy. I wonder how many ex traders there are now?

I left quite early on in the cycle. Maybe in the 2nd year of the premium charge but occasionally I check volumes and can see the volumes are way down.

[wearthefoxhat]

Reckon it's still a good time for new traders to jump in and learn the process(es) involved. The 2% commission charge is the cost of doing business and, on balance, is reasonable. The 5% was tough, and hopefully doesn't make a return in the future. The PC will still only affect a small percentage, but a nice problem to have and now a lot easier to anticipate.

One obvious selling point, when using an exchange, is you ain't gonna get banned for winning. The bookmakers and their algos have essentially overclocked the reducing/banning of a punter, whom, just might look like a potential winner, ie: Hard to beat, shrewd market choice bets..etc.

The Australian minimum bet rules should be brought in and applied to help remedy their stupid algos and will likely give the levy a boost that in turn improves prize money...etc (another issue horse racing/greyhounds face) Not applicable to football as the Premier League will exist even if no one placed a bet on a football match again.

What are the Minimum Bet Limit Rules?

Provided the wagering service provider’s annual turnover is over £5m, bookmakers must not:

Refuse to accept a fixed odds bet. (£500 @ Evs if MB Limit = £1000)
Close a person’s account.
Refuse to open a person’s account.
Place any restrictions on a person’s account.
Refuse to lay a fixed odds bet to any person when those fixed odds are publicly displayed.
Laying lesser odds to a person than those publicly displayed.
Perform any other act or refuse to do an act in order to avoid these provisions.

[Naffman]

And why does Caan Berry seem to hate Betfair so much these days? It wasn't long ago since when he was happy enough to get paid by them to speak at events and now he has not one positive word to say.

Either he can't win now so he's bitter or he's doing it all for clicks.

[jamesedwards]

And why does Caan Berry seem to hate Betfair so much these days? It wasn't long ago since when he was happy enough to get paid by them to speak at events and now he has not one positive word to say.

Either he can't win now so he's bitter or he's doing it all for clicks.

I can't speak for Caan specifically, but in my experience a successful trader is generally very pro-Betfair until they lose their edge and things get harder. Then they begin to grasp at conspiracy theories as to why they are making less money and can end up very bitter. You only have to look to the Betfair forum for plenty of examples of resident has-beens who have created some weird and wonderful theories why they are no longer profitable.

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[Revenant]

And why does Caan Berry seem to hate Betfair so much these days? It wasn't long ago since when he was happy enough to get paid by them to speak at events and now he has not one positive word to say.

Either he can't win now so he's bitter or he's doing it all for clicks.

He should be happy it'll make it easier for him to prove his profitability easier with the new charge. Should bring him in loads of extra subscribers without having to show his lifetime winnings.

[ShaunWhite]

And why does Caan Berry seem to hate Betfair so much these days? It wasn't long ago since when he was happy enough to get paid by them to speak at events and now he has not one positive word to say.

Either he can't win now so he's bitter or he's doing it all for clicks.

Hi Naffman, I think he's had his ego bruised because Betfair are quite rightly running a mile from an unprofessional professional. In a B2B relationship there's an unwritten understanding that you deal with grievances in private and you don't air your dirty laundry in public. He sees himself as a customer/victim/champion so will happily bite the hand that feeds him. And it spirals.

[Hepburn]

And why does Caan Berry seem to hate Betfair so much these days? It wasn't long ago since when he was happy enough to get paid by them to speak at events and now he has not one positive word to say.

Either he can't win now so he's bitter or he's doing it all for clicks.

Hi Naffman, I think he's had his ego bruised because Betfair are quite rightly running a mile from an unprofessional professional. In a B2B relationship there's an unwritten understanding that you deal with grievances in private and you don't air your dirty laundry in public. He sees himself as a customer/victim/champion so will happily bite the hand that feeds him. And it spirals.

Seems a legit projection. he's a bookie basher. Going off topic tho.

[SWISSAMI]

I am looking to get into trading on the exchange with betfair and bet angel but not quite there yet. I have been doing some backtesting on my strategies. I have a simple horse racing strategy just trading win and place on specific races determined by my model. I expect to trade between 1k-5k per trade if liquidity is there and at the end of the year i could accumulate a positive balance between 200k-400k. I thought that via the exchange this would be possible but I was not aware of this premium charge you mentioned in the links. The lifetime limits and the premium charge of 60% on winnings over the 250k threshold. Even if they go to a rolling schedule that will impact my ability to trade. Do I understand this correct that you can't win over 250k every year. Thanks for any feedback to this newbie.

[eightbo]

Also I've read this thread but still clueless.
Seems like I'll be charged overnight now? £25k-£100k 52-wk rolling, lifetime profit account, but I don't qualify for PC% rn bc of comms calc.
Are we saying I won't be charged because of the 'buffer' generated?

  > From Betfair's FAQ post: The Buffer is the greater of:[/i]
     (Commission Generated Since Last Expert Fee Paid / Current Expert Fee Rate) - Gross P&L Since Last Expert Fee Paid
     (Commission Generated Since Last Rate Change / Current Expert Fee Rate) - Gross P&L Since Last Rate Charge[/i]
     ...do I need to calculate my lifetime comms and apply it to the top calculation here to determine when I'll incur 1st Expert Fee?

  > From PW's initial post: "Transparent tracking. A revamped dashboard ensures clear visibility into activity and thresholds."
     I don't see any dashboard on https://profitandloss.betfair.com/ — am I looking in the right place?

Also, what approaches are people taking to log comms correctly for the sake of record keeping? as changes after closed markets ruin my scripts.

[Euler]

The dashboard is not up just yet.

Commission generated offsets Expert Fee, so if you have high comm gen you pay less EF.