Betfair Expert fee : Questions

[jamesedwards]

Comes out in 3 hours and have no idea what I’m paying

EF calculator.xlsx

Drop market line by line results downloaded from the P&L page into cells from A5. Adjust EF rate in cell G2. EF calculated in cell H2, correct within a few pence.

Assumes all markets are 2% commission rate.

I had to reduce the file down to 1000 rows to attach here, so be sure to extend if necessary.

Thankyou James

If you trade overnight dont forget that the trading week runs until 1am on monday now we are on BST.

[Shaung89]

Hi all,

Sorry this may already be answered in the thread but not easy to search for. I find myself in the sweetest of sweet spots earning just enough to maintain beneath the Expert Fee threshold via manual trading methods as and when I get chance. I'm conscious i've had a couple of good weeks and trying to understand the situation i'm in to ensure I avoid unnecessary fees where possible.

If my 52 Week Gross PnL is shown on the Expert Fee section as £24,070.91 and my PnL 52 weeks ago (hovering over the chart) was £223.89. Does that mean I could theoretically this week win £25,000 - (£24,070.91-£223.89) before hitting Expert Fee (£1,152.98)?

AND if so

Am I charged 20% on the weeks' PnL or just that amount which exceeds the £25,000 threshold?

TIA!

[Euler]

If my 52 Week Gross PnL is shown on the Expert Fee section as £24,070.91 and my PnL 52 weeks ago (hovering over the chart) was £223.89. Does that mean I could theoretically this week win £25,000 - (£24,070.91-£223.89) before hitting Expert Fee (£1,152.98)?

The 52 week P&L will show how much you have made over 52 active weeks, so I'm not sure what you are comparing here.

You should be able to see a buffer that has been accrued before you pay. That should be on the dashboard as well.

[Shaung89]

If my 52 Week Gross PnL is shown on the Expert Fee section as £24,070.91 and my PnL 52 weeks ago (hovering over the chart) was £223.89. Does that mean I could theoretically this week win £25,000 - (£24,070.91-£223.89) before hitting Expert Fee (£1,152.98)?

The 52 week P&L will show how much you have made over 52 active weeks, so I'm not sure what you are comparing here.

You should be able to see a buffer that has been accrued before you pay. That should be on the dashboard as well.

Here is the data I was using. My Buffer amount has never shown anything.

Expert Fee 190425.jpg

[Euler]

So, roughly £930 of further profit can be earned in the current 52‑week window before the account even becomes eligible for the Expert Fee.

After you clear that line the rate switches to 20 %, but any fee is still offset by the commission you generate and by any buffer you build up. With the present commission level – about 5.7 % of weekly profit – you would typically have room for another ~£3 k of profit before any potential debit occurs. But a lot depends on your strike rate and commission generated. But tipping over £25k won't mean an instant charge as the buffer will be created including commission you have generated to get there.

[jamesedwards]

Don't limit yourself to save 20%. You will stay below £25k forever when who knows what future opportunity you might be throwing away? You only need to get past about £30k before your profit becomes incremental again. You could be getting £50k in a couple of years and you'll never know your true potential.

[libor88]

Hi. What if I make 24 000 GBP last 52 weeks ( so no expert fee is charged) and suddenly next week I win 100K. So that week with huge win will be charged or the next one ?

[Tuco]

...as far as I know, (Peter or others will know better than I), I don't think you pay anything on the £100k win, but on the weekly wins after the £100k win you would pay 40% so long as the other 51 weeks put you in positive territory.

[jamesedwards]

Hi. What if I make 24 000 GBP last 52 weeks ( so no expert fee is charged) and suddenly next week I win 100K. So that week with huge win will be charged or the next one ?

I think if you cross a threshold due to activity in week 1 then the new fee rate applies from week 2.

Also if you've never paid expert fee or premium charge before there is a grace week where your first charge is waived.

[Euler]

I like that you are worried about making £100k in a week

[tumby]

I didn't pay enough attention to the switch from PC to Expert Fee at the time so I am sorry to have to ask questions on the topic which have probably been analysed to death previously. I did search the forum but couldn't see an answer to my questions so I'm hoping someone can help out.

I used to be a PC payer but as my systems have become less effective over the years I was below the £25k threshold when the changeover took place. As a result I celebrated no longer having to pay the PC and never looked into the Expert Fee as it wasn't relevant. Over the last few months I've made an effort to get my systems working better, it has paid off and I find myself getting closer to the £25k threshold.

The problem I have is that my commission rate is very low at ~3.23% so when I go over the £25k threshold as I understand it, I will be clobbered with a charge of ~ £25k x (20%-2.32%).

First question, am I correct in my understanding of the charge that is coming my way?

Second question, why don't I just take a large punt @ 2:1 on any random thing in the amount of the impending charge? If I win then I will make enough to cover the hit from the expert fee, If I lose then I wont pay the expert fee but I will lose the same amount of money and not being charged 20% going forwards. Economically I think I am better off in both scenarios. What have I missed?

I realise that I could be faced with the problem again when this large one off bet is more than 52 weeks old, but surely I could just repeat indefinitely?

[jamesedwards]

I didn't pay enough attention to the switch from PC to Expert Fee at the time so I am sorry to have to ask questions on the topic which have probably been analysed to death previously. I did search the forum but couldn't see an answer to my questions so I'm hoping someone can help out.

I used to be a PC payer but as my systems have become less effective over the years I was below the £25k threshold when the changeover took place. As a result I celebrated no longer having to pay the PC and never looked into the Expert Fee as it wasn't relevant. Over the last few months I've made an effort to get my systems working better, it has paid off and I find myself getting closer to the £25k threshold.

The problem I have is that my commission rate is very low at ~3.23% so when I go over the £25k threshold as I understand it, I will be clobbered with a charge of ~ £25k x (20%-2.32%).

First question, am I correct in my understanding of the charge that is coming my way?

Second question, why don't I just take a large punt @ 2:1 on any random thing in the amount of the impending charge? If I win then I will make enough to cover the hit from the expert fee, If I lose then I wont pay the expert fee but I will lose the same amount of money and not being charged 20% going forwards. Economically I think I am better off in both scenarios. What have I missed?

I realise that I could be faced with the problem again when this large one off bet is more than 52 weeks old, but surely I could just repeat indefinitely?

The threshold is based on your rolling 52-wk gross P&L. This value is updated weekly on your Expert Fee account page. So you would need to keep this value permanently below £25k to avoid paying any EF.

Assuming your profit is reasonably consistent and you have a low commission rate then presumably your gross profit is about £500 per week. So if your rolling gross profit was £24,999 and is about to become £25,199 (£500 profit this year vs £300 last year), then you would be liable for about £200 worth of Expert Fee (£500 @ 20% minus a bit of commission). Or you could choose to bet £200 @ 3.0. If you lose then you will owe nothing, but if you win then your rolling gross profit will increase to about £25,599 and you will owe about £240 in Expert Fee. But, your rolling 52-wk profit will be higher so it will take a longer losing run to get you back to zero fee again. And you will need to bet more in your end-of-week punt to keep avoiding fees.

Another option would be to keep your Gross Profit permanently at £24,999 by only earning the exact amount that you won 53 weeks ago to keep your rolling 52-wk profit consistent. Less profit, but more time away from your PC.

The risk with either of the above two options is that it limits your potential. Who knows, you could be paying the higher rate in a couple of years, or you could be stuck at £24,999 to avoid EF.

[wearthefoxhat]

I didn't pay enough attention to the switch from PC to Expert Fee at the time so I am sorry to have to ask questions on the topic which have probably been analysed to death previously. I did search the forum but couldn't see an answer to my questions so I'm hoping someone can help out.

I used to be a PC payer but as my systems have become less effective over the years I was below the £25k threshold when the changeover took place. As a result I celebrated no longer having to pay the PC and never looked into the Expert Fee as it wasn't relevant. Over the last few months I've made an effort to get my systems working better, it has paid off and I find myself getting closer to the £25k threshold.

The problem I have is that my commission rate is very low at ~3.23% so when I go over the £25k threshold as I understand it, I will be clobbered with a charge of ~ £25k x (20%-2.32%).

First question, am I correct in my understanding of the charge that is coming my way?

Second question, why don't I just take a large punt @ 2:1 on any random thing in the amount of the impending charge? If I win then I will make enough to cover the hit from the expert fee, If I lose then I wont pay the expert fee but I will lose the same amount of money and not being charged 20% going forwards. Economically I think I am better off in both scenarios. What have I missed?

I realise that I could be faced with the problem again when this large one off bet is more than 52 weeks old, but surely I could just repeat indefinitely?

Well done on your progress.

James answer is a good one, although, FWIW, just go with the flow and focus on compounding your bankroll. The PC (expert fee) is just the cost of doing business and should be seen as a nice problem to have.

By lumping on a 2/1+ shot, and losing, to avoid the EF, goes against the grain.