21 yr old looking for all round advice

[Goobs]

It's funny that you can't even get the pros to agree on how much commission they pay, whenever I trade on any other exchange, options or futures the fee structure is very clear.

Also, if you do somehow manage to do very well, you have to overcome the "Expert fee" which seems like mind-blowing greed to me.

I've been trading on exchanges since the 1980s and I've never heard of an exchange taking any participants profit beyond the standard commission, if anything it was the opposite, if you were a large player you got treated like a king and were offered discounts.

This gambling game is very much an unwinnable for most.

[Simoba]

It's funny that you can't even get the pros to agree on how much commission they pay, whenever I trade on any other exchange, options or futures the fee structure is very clear.

Also, if you do somehow manage to do very well, you have to overcome the "Expert fee" which seems like mind-blowing greed to me.

I've been trading on exchanges since the 1980s and I've never heard of an exchange taking any participants profit beyond the standard commission, if anything it was the opposite, if you were a large player you got treated like a king and were offered discounts.

This gambling game is very much an unwinnable for most.

Exactly this. I too have been involved since the 1980's (betting not trading). The days of the "VIP" accounts, personal direct phone line to your VIP account manager, free money in bets, days out at the major race meetings etc etc. We were staking huge amounts but certainly were not winners long term. Looking back, it was really was a dreadful scheme, which I believe was dismantled when the new regulations came in. The gambling game is very much unwinnable for most (me included!) in my experience too.

[jamesedwards]

I too have been involved since the 1980's (betting not trading). The days of the "VIP" accounts, personal direct phone line to your VIP account manager, free money in bets, days out at the major race meetings etc etc. We were staking huge amounts but certainly were not winners long term. Looking back, it was really was a dreadful scheme, which I believe was dismantled when the new regulations came in. The gambling game is very much unwinnable for most (me included!) in my experience too.

It's a shocker because Betfair have been able to use regulation as an excuse for aloof (read cheap) customer service. I personally contribute enough in fees to keep Peter Jackson in a brand new Porsche every year, and in any other industry I would be very well catered to. But with Betfair I can't even speak to someone on the phone.

[ruthlessimon]

In my mind these are long dead. They're certainly not scalable unless I'm missing a big trick?

Average Joe is more likely to make money off a £10 free bet than attempting to "trade" the 14:30 at Kempton in-play using "Trader Carl’s" £400 course.

Small EV > no EV

Are those comparable? A free bet vs trying to do something requiring ability they don't have?

It's just regular risk:return. Pick up a small no risk amount, or spend time and money instead with a %age chance of picking up much larger amounts, or nothing. Bank savings account vs Crypto or other assets.

Context matters here:

no other gambling framework offers a starting point this close to profitability

For 99% of people, matched betting is a much closer starting point to profitability than trading.

Matched betting is just maths. Trading requires maths and skill.

Extract a few grand risk-free from offers, then use that to fund the tools and bankroll needed for the transition to trading.

Even Peter didn’t start trading initially. He was arbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNNZAuwpJ4

[Goobs]

I trade most of my options activity on an exchange called Deribit these days. Last year I was trading over $1M notional a month, they reached out to me and give me a discount on maker and taker rates without me even asking!

This industry seems very greedy and it's pretty clear why it's in decline.

[ShaunWhite]

It's funny that you can't even get the pros to agree on how much commission they pay, whenever I trade on any other exchange, options or futures the fee structure is very clear.
.

We know what we pay obviously, how we calculate that varies because we've only got ourselves to report to. There's fees and costs but fortunately no zero income tax, ni or cgt.

If you don't like the terms or the proposition, do something else.

[Goobs]

It's funny that you can't even get the pros to agree on how much commission they pay, whenever I trade on any other exchange, options or futures the fee structure is very clear.
.

We know what we pay obviously, how we calculate that varies because we've only got ourselves to report to. There's fees and costs but fortunately no zero income tax, ni or cgt.

If you don't like the terms or the proposition, do something else.

I like trhe terms about as much as I like you....

[JuiceyJones]

I have just created an account on here after watching countless Bet Angel videos on YouTube. I have just finished University and would like to give betfair trading a proper shot before I have to get a more 'traditional' job...

I love horse racing and use the exchange daily whether that be backing my own selections based on form or (trying) to follow the money.

I am mainly wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction on how to get started, whether that be recommending a trading course or just some general advice from your experience doing this.

Cheers!

Finding (more by accident) a mentor really worked well for me. Someone who had a proven track record of winning over many years and that I have access to daily. It was still a lot of work and many years of loses and breaking even but well worth it in the end.

I think for any career that's a little off center you will always have 3-4 times as many people telling you its a terrible idea than a good one. Their reasons for that are probably more important to them than you.

Maybe start pat time until you find something that sticks then go from there.

[jamesedwards]

I have just created an account on here after watching countless Bet Angel videos on YouTube. I have just finished University and would like to give betfair trading a proper shot before I have to get a more 'traditional' job...

I love horse racing and use the exchange daily whether that be backing my own selections based on form or (trying) to follow the money.

I am mainly wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction on how to get started, whether that be recommending a trading course or just some general advice from your experience doing this.

Cheers!

Finding (more by accident) a mentor really worked well for me. Someone who had a proven track record of winning over many years and that I have access to daily. It was still a lot of work and many years of loses and breaking even but well worth it in the end.

I think for any career that's a little off center you will always have 3-4 times as many people telling you its a terrible idea than a good one. Their reasons for that are probably more important to them than you.

Maybe start pat time until you find something that sticks then go from there.

I get the feeling that despite the vigorous, although somewhat poisonous, discussion this thread has created, we'll never see the OP again. Hope I'm wrong!

[Goobs]

Our work here is done, another one saved...

[JuiceyJones]

I have just created an account on here after watching countless Bet Angel videos on YouTube. I have just finished University and would like to give betfair trading a proper shot before I have to get a more 'traditional' job...

I love horse racing and use the exchange daily whether that be backing my own selections based on form or (trying) to follow the money.

I am mainly wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction on how to get started, whether that be recommending a trading course or just some general advice from your experience doing this.

Cheers!

Finding (more by accident) a mentor really worked well for me. Someone who had a proven track record of winning over many years and that I have access to daily. It was still a lot of work and many years of loses and breaking even but well worth it in the end.

I think for any career that's a little off center you will always have 3-4 times as many people telling you its a terrible idea than a good one. Their reasons for that are probably more important to them than you.

Maybe start pat time until you find something that sticks then go from there.

I get the feeling that despite the vigorous, although somewhat poisonous, discussion this thread has created, we'll never see the OP again. Hope I'm wrong!

Always working on trying to add liquidity to the markets. James. Makes me feel like I'm doing my part.

[jamesedwards]

Finding (more by accident) a mentor really worked well for me. Someone who had a proven track record of winning over many years and that I have access to daily. It was still a lot of work and many years of loses and breaking even but well worth it in the end.

I think for any career that's a little off center you will always have 3-4 times as many people telling you its a terrible idea than a good one. Their reasons for that are probably more important to them than you.

Maybe start pat time until you find something that sticks then go from there.

I get the feeling that despite the vigorous, although somewhat poisonous, discussion this thread has created, we'll never see the OP again. Hope I'm wrong!

Always working on trying to add liquidity to the markets. James. Makes me feel like I'm doing my part.

[Simoba]

It's funny that you can't even get the pros to agree on how much commission they pay, whenever I trade on any other exchange, options or futures the fee structure is very clear.
.

We know what we pay obviously, how we calculate that varies because we've only got ourselves to report to. There's fees and costs but fortunately no zero income tax, ni or cgt.

If you don't like the terms or the proposition, do something else.

Nice. Every January I send off a huge payment in income tax (and even more as of 2027), so glad that you don't have to pay any yourself. Never had once pence in any benefit either, so let's hope I can at least get a State Pension in 10 years. My wife says to me "oh we must pay our way in society by paying our taxes, we cannot be parasites". If only that burden was paid by all that could afford to chip in their fair share of a contribution..........

[Simoba]

I too have been involved since the 1980's (betting not trading). The days of the "VIP" accounts, personal direct phone line to your VIP account manager, free money in bets, days out at the major race meetings etc etc. We were staking huge amounts but certainly were not winners long term. Looking back, it was really was a dreadful scheme, which I believe was dismantled when the new regulations came in. The gambling game is very much unwinnable for most (me included!) in my experience too.

It's a shocker because Betfair have been able to use regulation as an excuse for aloof (read cheap) customer service. I personally contribute enough in fees to keep Peter Jackson in a brand new Porsche every year, and in any other industry I would be very well catered to. But with Betfair I can't even speak to someone on the phone.

You were obviously a winner on Betfair then James. They very much looked after us big staking losers, well they did back in the day. I could tell you some tales, it really was quite awful looking back. I could afford it, but I do wonder how many people lost everything, as there were ZERO affordability checks back then. Could deposit and straight bet 10k, 20k, 30k, £40k every weekend, in fact I think limits then were £20k per day for a deposit. My VIP manager rang me one day, this is going back maybe 2 or 3 years and said the scheme is stopping, I am being moved on, goodbye ! There was the infamous guy who worked for the Post Office in Ireland, lost millions, was on a VIP scheme, encouraged to bet. I read his book and I think he allegedly had the direct phone line for Mr Paddy Power ! Whatever people think of affordability checks etc, for a minority of huge staking gamblers, they were a Godsend, but all it has done, is sent them to black market bookies. They will lay you to £250k per day for horse racing, £100k a day for football. So I was told anyway. Trying getting a bet of that size on at any mainstream bookie. The last time I was in a High Street bookie was for Cheltenham, maybe 5 years ago. I tried to get £5k on a 1-3 favourite, they laid me £750 and I had to stand there 20 minutes to get it approved. The game has so gone since our heyday back in the 80's to maybe 2000, when we could get on proper bets with any bookmaker. That being said, I would be a lot wealthier if I had never gambled, if only we could have our time again eh !!!!

[jamesedwards]

It's funny that you can't even get the pros to agree on how much commission they pay, whenever I trade on any other exchange, options or futures the fee structure is very clear.
.

We know what we pay obviously, how we calculate that varies because we've only got ourselves to report to. There's fees and costs but fortunately no zero income tax, ni or cgt.

If you don't like the terms or the proposition, do something else.

Nice. Every January I send off a huge payment in income tax (and even more as of 2027), so glad that you don't have to pay any yourself. Never had once pence in any benefit either, so let's hope I can at least get a State Pension in 10 years. My wife says to me "oh we must pay our way in society by paying our taxes, we cannot be parasites". If only that burden was paid by all that could afford to chip in their fair share of a contribution..........

A full-time pro trader still contributes significantly towards the public purse. No direct income tax, sure. But they are charged heavily by Betfair with Expert Fee charges (40% of gross profit) going straight to their bottom line and flowing directly into their significant corporation and gambling duty tax bills. Plus there's still plenty of other taxes that apply no matter where your money comes from, VAT, interest, and CCT on investments being obvious examples. And there's unlikely to be any benefits, plus no NI contributions towards your pension.

I reckon, all in, about 40% of my Betfair profit ends up with the government in some form of tax receipts which is pretty much in-line with what I would be paying if it was a taxable salary.