Following on from Kelpie's remark about as yet unknown alternatives to Betfair that are not on the stock market.
An American friend of mine, mentioned a while ago, "cloudbet" which uses bitcoins as its currency and has virtually all the different sports markets with no limits on bets.
Does anybody have any knowledge/experience of this site?
Full Timers
TBH, I'd like to see Nick Griffin marry a Muslim black asylum seeker, as it would show that he'd finally seen the error of his racist ways! 
But I take your point about Betfair betraying what they once stood for.
Jeff
But I take your point about Betfair betraying what they once stood for.
Jeff
LeTiss 4pm wrote: To see them now is like watching Nick Griffin getting married to a Muslim black asylum seeker
What I'm saying is that the 60% PC may make sense from a business perspective - nobody knows for sure - but I think it's a shame that Betfair have abandoned their original revolutionary 'winners are welcome' P2P model where they were just an honest broker who took a modest commission.
Jeff
Jeff
mugsgame wrote: Jeff are you saying you may be in favour of PC? Or that you think it's a good thing?
I must have the wrong end of the stick here.
Maybe, but the problem any such company is up against is that Joe Punter who bets a tenner on the Mirror's nap of the day will have no incentive to go to the hassle of moving from Betfair - a company he has used for years without problem and a household name.
To use an analogy, if a local businessman were to set up a bank in your area, you might think, 'This guy offers marginally better interest rates than my High St bank, but I've never heard of him. Can I trust him with my money, and can I be bothered with the hassle of moving?'.
Jeff
To use an analogy, if a local businessman were to set up a bank in your area, you might think, 'This guy offers marginally better interest rates than my High St bank, but I've never heard of him. Can I trust him with my money, and can I be bothered with the hassle of moving?'.
Jeff
kelpie wrote: The only real solution is a replacement to betfair not listed on the stock exchanges. It may be a name we have never heard yet.
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andyfuller
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Of the original 500 it affected, that was no reflection of how much they 'earned' from Betfair, other than they had earned £250,000 over their lifetime of using Betfair which could equate to roughly £23,000 per year. To me that is not a high earner.Ferru123 wrote:True. I believe Betfair once said that it affects only 500 customers.andyfuller wrote: Very few of the top earners on BF are 60% PC customers
Jeff
It was more a reflection of how they used Betfair. Two very different points and as such paying 60% did not mean you were a 'high earner' let alone a top earner. (Obviously what constitutes a high earner is open to your own interpretation but I would use the UK Governments tax banding myself as a rough guide)
It was about 500 customers that were affected when the charge was first bought in at the higher levels. I suspect that figure is quite different now. I would not be surprised if it were lower than 500 now (even when including inactive customers).
Jeff - get it out of your head that the higher rate PC players are "rich".Ferru123 wrote:True, but you don't have to be a higher rate tax payer to have a valid view on how much tax the rich should pay.
JeffLeTiss 4pm wrote: He doesn't pay PC, it means his blood doesn't boil like the rest of us
For me the bulk of the money I made to get me into the higher PC bracket are not open to me now. So I have to contend with inferior liquidity (read Fill rates), x matching, data charges, transaction charges and 60%. If they said - The 1st £500 a week will be PC free, I could just live with that. But if I have a shocker and make £200 they take £120 of that. If I were to be making £5000 then it doesn't sound too bad as I would still have £2k. Who could moan about that?
The risk is all mine. When I lose they don't give me 60% back.
But in reality the worse aspect of the higher rate PC is it kills the dream for anyone who aspires to "make it'. As soon as you do it becomes so much harder.
That's a good pointFerru123 wrote:Maybe, but the problem any such company is up against is that Joe Punter who bets a tenner on the Mirror's nag of the day will have no incentive to go to the hassle of moving from Betfair - a company he has used for years without problem and a household name.
Tou've probably hit on the single biggest relief at betfair. They appear to see themselves as the one with the balls to have overcome a massive barrier to entry and it will not be easy for others to follow. Doubtless betfair look at mutinous PC traders and the mighty Ladbrokes still toiling with betdaq and are chuckling... for now.
but I still expect a replacement to the original betfair will unfold; whether it takes several quarters or several years we shall see. Things can happen quickly in the digital age.
betfair's fate is to be the starting model which failed but which paved the way for more succesful and honourable exchanges. Same as myspace was replaced by Facebook; Apple ceded to Windows; Dan Air to British Airways...
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superfrank
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i'm not sure that will come to pass. over the last 5 years we've moved even further away from a having true p2p sports exchange. both exchanges owned by bookies and neither operated as a true exchange.kelpie wrote:betfair's fate is to be the starting model which failed but which paved the way for more succesful and honourable exchanges. Same as myspace was replaced by Facebook; Apple ceded to Windows; Dan Air to British Airways...
i don't think a true p2p exchange can exist in an environment where big business growth strategies and shareholders are involved.
the ideal scenario, imho, would be a new exchange owned by, and run as, a co-operative (of punters and traders and others) similar to how John Lewis is owned/run. it would require a significant initial investment, so, when i come up on the EuroMillions i'll post here and we can all get involved (and crowdfund some more dough to get it going and get the ownership widespread).
hopefully it won't be too long
I disagree.
If you were to say to most people, 'you have the opportunity to make £250,000, which is tax exempt. Once you hit £250,000, you pay a 60% charge', I think most people would think 'I will worry about the 60% charge if I ever get to it - I'm not going to let that put me off making a quarter of a million quid!'.
Here's an analogy. If you worked in a taxable job, 45% of your income between £32K and £150K would go on income tax. However, the fact that that tax bracket exists doesn't stop people striving to increase their income. You don't hear many people saying, 'I would try to get to a position where I was earning £100K, but the fact that I would pay so much tax puts me off'.
Jeff
If you were to say to most people, 'you have the opportunity to make £250,000, which is tax exempt. Once you hit £250,000, you pay a 60% charge', I think most people would think 'I will worry about the 60% charge if I ever get to it - I'm not going to let that put me off making a quarter of a million quid!'.
Here's an analogy. If you worked in a taxable job, 45% of your income between £32K and £150K would go on income tax. However, the fact that that tax bracket exists doesn't stop people striving to increase their income. You don't hear many people saying, 'I would try to get to a position where I was earning £100K, but the fact that I would pay so much tax puts me off'.
Jeff
mugsgame wrote: But in reality the worse aspect of the higher rate PC is it kills the dream for anyone who aspires to "make it'. As soon as you do it becomes so much harder.
I understand why you might think that Jeff but the fact is that less people are attracted to betfair since 60% came in.
Another software vendor once told me just how fewer people were signing up since the higher rate PC came in, I can't remember the exact figure but the drop was pretty dramatic.
Another software vendor once told me just how fewer people were signing up since the higher rate PC came in, I can't remember the exact figure but the drop was pretty dramatic.