Never ever heard of something like that Alanof. Not disputing that it happened but they would be in breach of their own T&C's - I would say you would have a cast iron case if you appealed it with IBAS as there is absolutely no way they can argue what they have said to you.
Anyone reading this don't be worried that Betfair might do this in the future as they can not it would be in violation of their T&C's.
light bulb moment in betfair trading career
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
I think that what JG has said about Temperament is very important as well. I would say the likes of Adam Heathcote are born with the temperament but that doesn't mean AH doesn't work at it. If you read through his blog it is full of stuff where he is working on his mindset.JollyGreen wrote:You need a certain temperament to perform well at trading and most people either lack it or are unwilling to change. It all boils down to fear of failure IMHO. Everyone sees all these wonderful totals achieved by other traders and so a loss makes people feel bad.
Adam is in the lucky position where he can afford to take a lot of time off and relax and enjoy the rewards of his trading. It seems to me that Peter hasn't enjoyed the rewards of his trading as much as I would have thought he would, I may be wrong. The reason though that I think he has done that is because he gets huge self reward from the trading itself and cracking the trading puzzle and improving his trading.
I read in a recent post on Peter's blog that he was going to start enjoying his trading rewards more in the future and I think that is very important for the mindset.
From my own experience, people who used to read my blog will know that my aim was to be able to buy myself a house. Thankfully I am now at the point but won't be doing it until after the busy summer racing. But the downside of this target has been that day after day I sit at my computer trading and getting no enjoyment from what I make. It just goes into a bank account and sits there.
So I have said to myself that from September onwards I am going to start rewarding myself. No longer will I work 7 days a week, I will take days off and not feel guilty about doing so. I will buy myself things and do trips and challenges and take advantage of the flexibility that trading can bring.
In the last couple of years I have felt quite drained at times and said to myself what am I doing all this for - I know it is to buy a house but that has seemed so far off in the distance and has not been tangible.
So I think even if you are just learning it is important that you give yourself time off - it allows you to clear your head and think about your trading rather than just grinding through the days. Also when you do well give yourself a reward whatever that may be for you.
If you achieve results like:
The majority of the day had been good with consistent wins. You should not just focus on the losses but also on what you have done right and well and congratulate yourself on that.ba1000 wrote: 14:10 Extr 13th Apr 0.13
14:20 Ponte 13th Apr 0.47
14:30 Yarm 13th Apr 0.38
14:40 Extr 13th Apr 0.26
14:50 Ponte 13th Apr 0.41
15:00 Yarm 13th Apr 0.56
15:10 Extr 13th Apr 0.55
15:20 Ponte 13th Apr 0.64
15:30 Yarm 13th Apr 0.23
15:40 Extr 13th Apr 0.39
15:50 Ponte 13th Apr 0.30
16:00 Yarm 13th Apr 0.82
16:10 Extr 13th Apr 0.66
16:20 Ponte 13th Apr 0.28
16:30 Yarm 13th Apr -21.12
16:40 Extr 13th Apr 0.91
16:50 Ponte 13th Apr 0.67
17:00 Yarm 13th Apr 6.47
17:10 Extr 13th Apr 1.82
17:20 Ponte 13th Apr 5.17
17:40 Extr 13th Apr -31.36
17:55 Lim 13th Apr 20.00
18:25 Lim 13th Apr 2.08
It is far to easy to get bogged down with the bad trades and forget all about the good ones. I am very guilty of that and it is something I am looking to work on.
Also start your day with a bit of this to give yourself some confidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qae_TUTeGo
Thank you Alanof for your crucial "two pence" worth as it seems like nobody would believe me that companies can take advantage of their customers!! Just look at the mess the banks made 2007.
What you said sounds very similar to what happened to me - and as I could not find any support on this forum i let the case go as Betfair quoted rules and regulations to me so I assumed I could do a thing about it. And six months on I can not do anything about as I did not video what I did on my screen as proof.
Thank you thank you thank you.
What you said sounds very similar to what happened to me - and as I could not find any support on this forum i let the case go as Betfair quoted rules and regulations to me so I assumed I could do a thing about it. And six months on I can not do anything about as I did not video what I did on my screen as proof.
Thank you thank you thank you.
What happened to us is like going into a supermarket buying our product only to look at our bank statement and find out that they dipped into our accounts and took more money out.
Their excuse would be that they were in the process of raising their price but did not have the time to change it when we purchased it and applied that increase afterwards and took out the extra money retrospectively.
I dont think anybody would like that to happen to them.
As I said before I have taken it on the chin - however I want people to be aware of it so if it happens to them they now know thanks to others (now on the forum) that they can not do it to them!
Their excuse would be that they were in the process of raising their price but did not have the time to change it when we purchased it and applied that increase afterwards and took out the extra money retrospectively.
I dont think anybody would like that to happen to them.
As I said before I have taken it on the chin - however I want people to be aware of it so if it happens to them they now know thanks to others (now on the forum) that they can not do it to them!
Thanks Andy for "The majority of the day had been good with consistent wins. You should not just focus on the losses but also on what you have done right and well and congratulate yourself on that.
It is far to easy to get bogged down with the bad trades and forget all about the good ones. I am very guilty of that and it is something I am looking to work on."
Good advice.
It is far to easy to get bogged down with the bad trades and forget all about the good ones. I am very guilty of that and it is something I am looking to work on."
Good advice.
Hi,
I must admit I havent read this in its entirety, but as regards the profit that was a loss, this is how it may have happened.
When there is a non runner, betangel doesnt (or didnt use to) recalculate the new reduction.
So if I had backed a horse for £100 at 8, then there was a non runner, it would still show up as 8 on betangel.
Therefore when the non runner came through, and the horse was now trading at 7/7.2, it would show that I am green for 14.28 should I want to close out.
However, with the reduction factor, I am actually only on for £100 at 6.8. Which is actually a loss of £5.66. So if I greened up at £14.28, it would actually be a loss.
What I found I have to do after a non runner is click on a new market, then go back to the one I was trading. When I do this, the RF has been applied, the odds I have backed at will have changed (to 6.8 in this example) , and the greening will show its true position ( - £5.66 in this example).
Its happened to me a few times where I have left the room and found myself in an unexpectedly good/bad position, its not until clicking on a new market, and then clicking back that the revised odds are taken into account for greening purposes.
I must admit I havent read this in its entirety, but as regards the profit that was a loss, this is how it may have happened.
When there is a non runner, betangel doesnt (or didnt use to) recalculate the new reduction.
So if I had backed a horse for £100 at 8, then there was a non runner, it would still show up as 8 on betangel.
Therefore when the non runner came through, and the horse was now trading at 7/7.2, it would show that I am green for 14.28 should I want to close out.
However, with the reduction factor, I am actually only on for £100 at 6.8. Which is actually a loss of £5.66. So if I greened up at £14.28, it would actually be a loss.
What I found I have to do after a non runner is click on a new market, then go back to the one I was trading. When I do this, the RF has been applied, the odds I have backed at will have changed (to 6.8 in this example) , and the greening will show its true position ( - £5.66 in this example).
Its happened to me a few times where I have left the room and found myself in an unexpectedly good/bad position, its not until clicking on a new market, and then clicking back that the revised odds are taken into account for greening purposes.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Ah okay - does that still happen? That would seem to be a problem with Bet Angel if I have understood correctly?
For safety we pull all prices and odds from Betfair and do not calculate them from the software. This adds an extra call into the loop but it should return your P&L and prices according to Betfair. if you have seen anything different you should contact support.
Just following on from the scenario I outlined earlier and Andys response. Just in case I run into the same issue ever again - If theoretically there are 3 horses in a race and horse 3 fails to load but Betfair don't have time to withdraw the horse pre-in play, he will trade to 1000 immediately in running(the market discounts that he is not running). If you had backed horse number 1 his odds will now automatically improve in play (due to the reduced market size) and you could lay him for a risk free arb. Do people infer from the T&Cs that Betfair should be applying a reduction factor post race to both bets?
Thanks,
Alan
Thanks,
Alan
It's definitely happened to me a couple of times.
The revised prices(after a withdrawal) will show up on the main betfair site. Though if I click on the 'matched bets' tab, it still shows at the original price, before teh horse was withdrawn.
BetAngel uses this price to calculate my overall position on the market, which can be either over inflated or deflated, depending on what happened after.
However, as I said earlier, if i click onto another market, then go back to the one I was trading. If I then click the 'matched bets' tab, it shows up at the revised price (taking into account the RF), and also the overal position in the market is then calculated correctly.
I am using 1.23.3
I think that is out of date and I may need to update.
The revised prices(after a withdrawal) will show up on the main betfair site. Though if I click on the 'matched bets' tab, it still shows at the original price, before teh horse was withdrawn.
BetAngel uses this price to calculate my overall position on the market, which can be either over inflated or deflated, depending on what happened after.
However, as I said earlier, if i click onto another market, then go back to the one I was trading. If I then click the 'matched bets' tab, it shows up at the revised price (taking into account the RF), and also the overal position in the market is then calculated correctly.
I am using 1.23.3
I think that is out of date and I may need to update.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Watch a market where a horse has not been withdrawn from the market despite being a non runner. It does not trade immediately at 1000. It trades like it is running still.alanof wrote:If theoretically there are 3 horses in a race and horse 3 fails to load but Betfair don't have time to withdraw the horse pre-in play, he will trade to 1000 immediately in running(the market discounts that he is not running).
What do you mean by improve?alanof wrote: If you had backed horse number 1 his odds will now automatically improve in play (due to the reduced market size) and you could lay him for a risk free arb. Do people infer from the T&Cs that Betfair should be applying a reduction factor post race to both bets?
Assuming that nothing happens when the race starts (which of course will never happen as things happen from the moment the gates open which affect the price) His odds would shorten when the market went inplay as its chance of winning have been affected by the WD. I.e. the inplay market will price in the RF.
If you are saying you both backed and laid inrunning the RF would not be applied to either. The T&C's are that the RF will only apply to pre inplay bets.
There is no opportunity for a risk free Arb.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Perfect example in the first.
Iztaccihuatl was a late WD at the off £49,123 was traded on it by race end £49,366 and it was one of the last if not the last to hit 1000.0 despite not running.
Iztaccihuatl was a late WD at the off £49,123 was traded on it by race end £49,366 and it was one of the last if not the last to hit 1000.0 despite not running.
This has been a very interesting discussion although it appears to have been diverted slightly by ba1000's problem.
However, I would like to endorse most of the positive comments - especially those of Andy, Ferru and OllieLJ - learning to handle losses is probably the most important lesson in becoming a good trader - I have had 2 "light bulb" moments in 3 years of trading - one hurt like hell (and still hurts everytime I recall it) and the other was enlightening - it was the falling off the camel on the road to Damascus!!
In the first I let a trade go in play - initially telling myself that "This is sure to go out a few ticks (I had laid it) and I can get out for no loss or a little loss." You all know the rest of the story - its price collapsed and I lost $500 as it went on to win.
The second (and far more positive) "light bulb" moment hit me like a sledge hammer! I was pottering around on the web looking at trading sites and discussions and came across a response to a query from a guy called Ziad.
In the middle of his response to some guy who was having difficulty with trading he wrote:
"Trading is about being okay with ambiguity. It's about tolerating confusion. It's about sitting with discomfort and being at peace with it. It's about not having an exact script of when to trade or not to trade, or what's really a high odds trade, and being okay with that. It's about exceptions to the rules. It's about contradiction. It's about uncertainty.
And yet traders left and right want to make it simple. They want to reduce it to a few simple set-ups to trade with discipline. And yet the market is not simple. The market is all about uncertainty, and complexity, and ambiguity. Simple set-ups could never capture that, and they can never give you a true lasting edge."
This drove home a realisation that I had suffered from a self imposed disability for years - not just in my trading - but all those years I had been a punter. I had always been looking for a systematic approach or some form of laws or rules that would apply!
So . . . learning to accept a loss as part of the process has been achieved - I still have difficulty in handling the emotion of failure when I do take a loss - and that will take time.
But, accepting that there is no formula or prescription or "painting by numbers" process in trading has improved my trading immensely.
Having said that - I still go through patches of poor trading - perhaps I'm tired or maybe I need to freshen up my approach when that happens - but I am now asking myself this question: "When I am not trading well - is it that the markets are such that a good trader would fail? Or is it that I am unable to take advantage of the opportunities presented by the markets?"
I suspect the answer is pretty obvious!
Good trading
Galilee66
However, I would like to endorse most of the positive comments - especially those of Andy, Ferru and OllieLJ - learning to handle losses is probably the most important lesson in becoming a good trader - I have had 2 "light bulb" moments in 3 years of trading - one hurt like hell (and still hurts everytime I recall it) and the other was enlightening - it was the falling off the camel on the road to Damascus!!
In the first I let a trade go in play - initially telling myself that "This is sure to go out a few ticks (I had laid it) and I can get out for no loss or a little loss." You all know the rest of the story - its price collapsed and I lost $500 as it went on to win.
The second (and far more positive) "light bulb" moment hit me like a sledge hammer! I was pottering around on the web looking at trading sites and discussions and came across a response to a query from a guy called Ziad.
In the middle of his response to some guy who was having difficulty with trading he wrote:
"Trading is about being okay with ambiguity. It's about tolerating confusion. It's about sitting with discomfort and being at peace with it. It's about not having an exact script of when to trade or not to trade, or what's really a high odds trade, and being okay with that. It's about exceptions to the rules. It's about contradiction. It's about uncertainty.
And yet traders left and right want to make it simple. They want to reduce it to a few simple set-ups to trade with discipline. And yet the market is not simple. The market is all about uncertainty, and complexity, and ambiguity. Simple set-ups could never capture that, and they can never give you a true lasting edge."
This drove home a realisation that I had suffered from a self imposed disability for years - not just in my trading - but all those years I had been a punter. I had always been looking for a systematic approach or some form of laws or rules that would apply!
So . . . learning to accept a loss as part of the process has been achieved - I still have difficulty in handling the emotion of failure when I do take a loss - and that will take time.
But, accepting that there is no formula or prescription or "painting by numbers" process in trading has improved my trading immensely.
Having said that - I still go through patches of poor trading - perhaps I'm tired or maybe I need to freshen up my approach when that happens - but I am now asking myself this question: "When I am not trading well - is it that the markets are such that a good trader would fail? Or is it that I am unable to take advantage of the opportunities presented by the markets?"
I suspect the answer is pretty obvious!
Good trading
Galilee66
Good post Galille66.
I have tried to steer people away from my problem by asking other questions but no responses to those.
However it is extremely important to know that such a problem exists - if you are unfortunate enough to be caught out by it and how to deal with it.
For me this thread is about Harrysdog asking how much money should he invest in educating himself to be a trader.
My own experience is I quit a job to do financial spread betting several years ago (as I said earlier) and a few years ago I thought I would look into Betfair. I have lost just about everything in attempting to educate myself how to learn how to trade.
My experience may represent only 0.000001% of peoples exeprience however it is still a valid view point. It is just as important for a lossing "wannabe trader" to give people their experience just as it is for a successful professional trader.
I also said I can not help anybody become a successful trader that is down to others to do so. As your discussion pointed out there is NO magic formula - its about an adaptive trading strategy.
anybody watching the poker on TV this week will have seen the quote that when Doyle Brunson wrote the book on poker he immediately changed the way he played.
I am not complaining or bitter I knew the risks when I got involved - however I love trading (or at least attempting to do so)!
£400 / day is often advertised as the figure when you go on the web (for spread betting dont know about horse racing) so what does this really mean you have to achieve if you were trading horses for example. (I will continue this later.)
I have tried to steer people away from my problem by asking other questions but no responses to those.
However it is extremely important to know that such a problem exists - if you are unfortunate enough to be caught out by it and how to deal with it.
For me this thread is about Harrysdog asking how much money should he invest in educating himself to be a trader.
My own experience is I quit a job to do financial spread betting several years ago (as I said earlier) and a few years ago I thought I would look into Betfair. I have lost just about everything in attempting to educate myself how to learn how to trade.
My experience may represent only 0.000001% of peoples exeprience however it is still a valid view point. It is just as important for a lossing "wannabe trader" to give people their experience just as it is for a successful professional trader.
I also said I can not help anybody become a successful trader that is down to others to do so. As your discussion pointed out there is NO magic formula - its about an adaptive trading strategy.
anybody watching the poker on TV this week will have seen the quote that when Doyle Brunson wrote the book on poker he immediately changed the way he played.
I am not complaining or bitter I knew the risks when I got involved - however I love trading (or at least attempting to do so)!
£400 / day is often advertised as the figure when you go on the web (for spread betting dont know about horse racing) so what does this really mean you have to achieve if you were trading horses for example. (I will continue this later.)
Hi Ba1000
Did you get there in the end with spread betting?
If not, I can refer you to a couple of systems which appear, based on the reviews I've read and my emails with the authors, appear to be the real deal.
Jeff
Did you get there in the end with spread betting?
If not, I can refer you to a couple of systems which appear, based on the reviews I've read and my emails with the authors, appear to be the real deal.
Jeff
ba1000 wrote:
My own experience is I quit a job to do financial spread betting several years ago (as I said earlier) and a few years ago I thought I would look into Betfair. I have lost just about everything in attempting to educate myself how to learn how to trade.