2000 Guineas - This is complete Madness!

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JollyGreen
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

I am laid up in bed with a Man Cold and the way my head is thumping, I will have to pass on the trading this afternoon. :cry:

I see that Stewart is already looking at trading in running on St Nicholas Abbey - good luck...I don't think you'll need it.

I am a bit of a contrarian when it comes to most things and racing is no exception. Am I missing something here? Why on earth is St Nicholas Abbey trading at 2.20 for the 2000 Guineas. He's possibly going to make up into a very smart horse but unless he's grown a fifth leg over the winter I just can make no sense of the price. If you are a serious punter or just a form student who wants to use racing knowledge to make trading pay then you will probably want to have some "tissue" odds of your own. It's not tricky and provided you stick to your own rules and use your own interpretation long term then it should work for you.

Basically you sum up the chances of a horse based on, form, going, distance, breeding, size of field etc etc. You go through the list and decide if they are favourable or not. Then you put a tick in each box and the more ticks you find the stronger the chance/odds of your horse winning the race. You must remove yourself from hype and gossip and stick solely to what you know and what you can research. As good old Rafa Benitez would say is "I am talking about facts!"

Here are my thoughts and you can all shoot me later when the horse wins with its head in its chest!

Form = Looks useful and on official ratings he's about 6lb clear. However, horses can go both forwards and backwards from 2 to 3 years and his rivals may have improved in that period so that could make it much more competitive. He's won some good races but he's also beaten trees on other occasions.

Going = Well he's by Montjeu and his Grand Sire is Sadler's Wells. These horses were seen at their best with cut in the ground. The current going id Good to Firm so that is far from ideal.

Distance = He's bred to be a 1m4f horse but today he is running over 1m. When you couple this to the faster going it has to raise concerns that things may happen a bit too quickly. Now his class alone may well help him in this area but again there is some doubt. They are using Sea the Stars as a reference and saying he won the 2000 Guineas and then the Derby, Prix De Le Arc de Triomphe etc but he was a different horse. On the Sire of his breeding was a strong sprint influence and that usually means precocious talent at two. There is no great sprint influence* for St Nicholas Abbey.

* Horses with a strong sprint influence in their pedigree tend to develop and mature earlier than classically bred horses. Owners want a return on their purchase so sprint bred types prevail in the world of horse racing these days. I checked previous winners of the 2000 Guineas and many had a sprint influence in their pedigree. I cannot really find any such influence in the breeding of St Nicholas Abbey. I believe this is more of a Derby horse but if he fails today his price for the Derby will probably drift despite it being a better race for him!!

So if you look at just those three main factors you can find doubts in all of them. If there are doubts in all of these vital areas then how on earth can he 2.20 on Betfair and odds-on with some bookmakers?

As I said, he may win with his head in his chest but trust me, betting horses at this price in a race of this calibre is the quickest way to the poorhouse!!

Now admittedly a high percentage of people on here will not be betting but I just wanted to highlight how crazy the prices can be on these types of horses. We have a horse who may not be quick enough at 1m and may not enjoy the ground. He's not really bred for this distance and yet he's a crazy price. He ran against trees on his second start and you could've had a bigger price that day than he is today running against supposedly the best colts of their generation.

I couldn't back him with free money and I would urge anyone who is thinking they can get some free money to think again. There will be better 2.20 shots this year in races that are not half as competitive.

If he wins by half the track then good luck to him and his connections but he wouldn't carry a penny of my money!

I'd rather look at Canford Cliffs each way at around 12/1 - he may not quite get a mile but on this fast ground it's the best chance he will get.
Last edited by JollyGreen on Sat May 01, 2010 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mug
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:53 am

Are there many horses in the race who have had a run since the autumn?
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi JollyGreen

How do you decide how much weight to put onto each of the various factors that go into assessing a horse's chances?

For example, let's say a horse is running in a 5 furlong race. He's ran in the last 3 days, he's won at this distance before, and he's been trained by a top trainer. However, he's being ridden by a fairly average jockey, he's never run on today's surface, and he was pulled up last time out.

How do you rate this horse?

Jeff
JollyGreen wrote: If you are a serious punter or just a form student who wants to use racing knowledge to make trading pay then you will probably want to have some "tissue" odds of your own. It's not tricky and provided you stick to your own rules and use your own interpretation long term then it should work for you.
Bet Angel
Bet Angel
Bet Angel
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:47 pm

Well done Jollygreen! As a non horsey person, I love reading the analysis. Gives some perspective on the market and gave me a wonderful trading steer on the market.
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SpikeyBob
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yep, well done, your E/W came in :)
Bet Angel
Bet Angel
Bet Angel
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100501 - 1505 - 2000 Guineas - St Nicholas Abbey.png
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Zenyatta
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:17 pm

Jolly has not been wrong about a big race yet! Should have layed it to the rafters.

As it was, I did get the 20 tick Green-up on 'Elusive Pimpernel' In-Play
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JollyGreen
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am

:D :D :D

What was it George Peppard used to say in the A Team..."I love it when a plan comes together!".........at least I think it was him.

First, a big thank you to everyone who joined in with the post I hope that others who didn't feel inclined to post still managed to heed my advice. If you did then have a cold one for me later!

Second, thank you to all of those who sent me a text to either wish me well or just to say well done with this assessment. I've been unwell for most of the week but managed somehow to keep going. I think my body knew it was the weekend and it just let go. I have flu and feel pretty awful. I feel a lot better now though and so will one of my favourite charities!

I had a bet with someone I know - he said St Nicholas Abbey was a certainty and I told him it would lose. We agreed that whoever lost had to give a lump sum to charity. I won't betray his trust by naming him but I will say that he has already made the donation without fuss. He has also promised to pay for dinner the next time we meet up!

I was also pleased to see the Bet Angel guys make some money from the trading aspect. When you have an insight into the form and the relative merits of likely odds it does make it a bit easier to take a position and ride it out. I dare say those guys caned it so it seems like good news all round.

Finally could you all make commission cheques out to ..... :lol: :lol: :D :D :D only joking!

Enjoy the rest of the Bank Holiday...I'm staying in bed with my laptop :shock:

Oh and Zenyatta, thanks for the kind words but I am not sure I have got all of the big races correct. Mind you, enough to make it pay :P
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